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A fact from Robert Hale (bass-baritone) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 14 October 2023 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
Did you know... that when Robert Hale performed as Wagner's Wotan in Washington, a reviewer noted that he commanded "the spirit, from tragic grandeur to ironic detachment, from flooding tenderness to grim rage"?
Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
This article was translated from the German wikipedia. It's important that readers know the source of the information. We can't expect them to access the talk pages. Thank you. --Kleinzach05:42, 31 March 2009 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: http://www.snu.edu/robert-hale-internationally-acclaimed-bass-baritone-in-concert-at-snu. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original orplagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Voceditenore (talk) 06:32, 9 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
If you think its something readers would want to know, please feel free to add it with the source, where his birth is mentioned, - not in the infobox because it's not his common name. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:02, 5 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initial comments below. Mostly fairly small matters of phrasing, particularly to get the feel of English word order. A few suggestions about wikilinks and points where things could be more clearly explained or defined for non-operatic readers. As ever, please do shout if I've been unclear or unfair, or if I've misunderstood something. UndercoverClassicistT·C15:56, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
"heavier roles" might be a touch idiomatic: what exactly does it mean here? See later Hale shifted towards heavier repertoire.
If you read bass-baritone you are taken to baritone which uses "light" and "heavy". I think even without instructions it may be understood what the difference of a light voice and a heavy voice is. --GA
Learning. No, it doesn't mean more substantial but a different voice type, which is, however, already in bass-baritone. Should we perhaps say that he was a bass-baritone only then? I specified baritone for the City Opera, hope that helps. I doubt, though, that we should be that specific in the lead. --GA
It's general practice to begin a biography's body text with the subject's full name, but that's a convention rather than any sort of rule.
Practices seem to differ by topics, but I'm happy to do that. (I find it even more important for the sentence telling of death, and have often be reverted to just surname.)
More generally: this article has a long history, begun as a translation from German. I met it only recently, on the sad occasion of his death. A user watching asked if I'd take him to GA, and I thought why not - now is the time to improve, now that he is on the Main page and interest high. The history explains a certain unevenness, and the recent additions were made in some haste. --GA
Per MOS:ENDURE, rather than saying "now Southern Nazarene University", we may wish to give the year at which it changed.
"some haste": it was there before me, and not any of my priorities when making the biography fit for the Main page, and even now I don't think it matters for him. I believe it simply serves those who may know it under the new name. --GA
in the category Singer of the Year: more usual as in the Singer of the Year category
I am German as such things tell, - it probably came with the translation from German, but I still don't notice, - fixed --GA
where he was awarded the artist diploma: this sounds like it might have been slightly lost in translation: what is the artist's diploma?
sorry, I don't know, - it even was a red link. I thought it came from German, but the German article doesn't have it. I know that students of German Musikhochschule can graduate as teachers, or with a concert exam, but have no idea of American studies, and the exact terms of graduation. --GA
Suggest explaining briefly what the Metropolitan Opera National Council Auditions, as they don't seem to be auditions in the usual sense of the word.
While true that they no auditions in the usual sense, they are perhaps the best-known singing competition for opera, and an explanation would hold up readers who know that, no? --GA
I don't see any "operatic" expertise needed to understand that when the sentence begins with "won" it might be a competition, so I feel adding an extra word "competition" would just state the obvious. --GA
To my eyes, having not initially heard of them, it looked like a mistake (as if he had auditioned for a part, and then been given it). It would help many readers a lot if we were able to say something like "regarded as one of the world's most prestigious operatic competitions" or similar. UndercoverClassicistT·C21:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
He remained with the company for 10 years, where was often seen alongside Beverly Sills: missing a he, I think. Can we briefly introduce Sills (e.g. by voice type?)
the source calls her Prima donna, and she was in more than respect, not only singing the most complex coloratura lead roles but (later) also managing the company, and the Metropolitan Opera, - that can't be said briefly, and is rather well-known. Would it help to say "as the leading lady"? --GA
Would any of these operatic characters and composers merit a link?
I'd say no. They are in the operas' articles and would create a sea of blue. We (project opera) link to a composer if the opera has no article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:46, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
the then neglected belcanto: hyphenate then-neglected as a compound modifier.
not convinced, but if you say so --GA
also Opernhaus Zürich, Deutsche Oper am Rhein and Oper Frankfurt, among others.: this doesn't quite read right in English. Suggest starting a new sentence: "he also performed the role at..."
I tried it differently, because we'd loose the connection to the others that came surprisingly the same year as the first, and the ref says so. The others can't have been much later if at all, - he met his wife at the Oper Frankfurt, and they married that same year, but that would be OR ;) --GA
again first as the Holländer: comma after again, I think.
the comma belongs before the again - thank you for noticing something was wrong --GA
I don't follow, sorry. It wasn't his first in New York, of course. He sang for 10 years at the NYCO. But it was his first at the Met. The Holländer again, that he had sung (almost) all over Europe, and finally brought home, so to speak. How would you say that? --GA
Reviewer John Rockwell from the New York Times noted about his 100th performance in the role that he made great impact: better ordered as something like "Reviewing Hale's 100th performance in the New York Times, John Rockwell noted that...". The quotation that follows doesn't, on its own and out of context, say "great impact" to me: it almost reads as if it's going to be followed by a "but...".
I put the 100th in the previous sentence, how is that? - I also quote the whole passage, - there's no "but", knowing to declaim a Wagnerian phrase is a rare thing ;) - problem of that review is that it compares to a previous performance, which makes is difficult to extract something meaningful. - The reviewer has an article, so his words count, it seems ;) --GA
This is actually true for many roles. People unfamiliar with the topic should first read about the stage works. Reading about Odin is a long detour, which can be taken from the opera by those who want it. --GA
(the Wanderer in its part Siegfried): this one took me a minute. Suggest "and the part of the Wanderer...".
(I said "part" for the longest time - because the German word is "Partie" - but was trained that in opera it's "role".) tried something --GA
at Hessisches Staatstheater Wiesbaden: in English, use the Hessisches Staatstheater...
well, that's hard for a German, because "Hessisches Staatstheater" is equal to "Das hessische Staatstheater", - it has the article in the name, leading to saying "the the" in a way. Take "La Scala", - we say "at La Scala", not "at the La Scala", and it's just more obvious. --GA
thank you, only: it's not at all about German grammar, - I'd just like as much respect for German grammar as we have for Italian ;) --GA
Explain briefly what the Jahrhundertring was (MOS:NOFORCELINK).
impossible to say that briefly, just take the legendary DYK: ... that a French team created the Jahrhundertring(scene pictured) of Wagner's Ring Cycle at the centenary Bayreuth Festival in 1976, causing "a near-riot"? - Which part of that would you suggest to include? --GA
Well, that page has this as a short desc: Centenary production of Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen at the Bayreuth Festival. Would that be a start? Could always cut "at the...". UndercoverClassicistT·C21:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
well, taking it, but I'd prefer readers to visit one of the articles I'm really proud of ;) --GA
He came to regard the company as his artistic home, where he learned not only the music of great roles but also meaning and pronunciation of the text, and acting: and acting sits oddly here. Suggest where he learned not acting and the music of great roles, but...
I don't follow why "acting" would move to the front. - I found it hard to paraphrase, so use the full quote now, please check if that's better. --GA
Hale appeared as Wotan and Holländer: and the Holländer?
not convinced, "Der fliegende Holländer" is a name rather than a person from a country (Dutchman) --GA
Ah, I'd misunderstood: his name is Holländer? There were quite a few uses of the Holländer elsewhere in the article: might be worth a check that these are all correct? UndercoverClassicistT·C21:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Well, it's not like a surname, it's a mythology character "Der fliegende Holländer" (The Flying Dutchman), but colloquially shortened to "der Holländer" (the Dutchman), not meaning someone from the Netherlands but this character. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:07, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Suggest saying where the Royal Opera House is: there might (?) only be one actually known by that name, but most readers won't know that.
yes, I had forgotten that this was the first mentioning of the house in this article. In the previous article, it came sooner in the career. --GA
Royal Danish Opera, Finnish National Opera,: the in both cases. This sentence seems to imply that the Royal Opera House, the Vienna State Opera and so on are not leading opera houses: could perhaps add an "other leading opera houses".
he was Pizarro in Fidelio: I think we need he played rather than he was. Ditto He was Wotan
problem is that we don't have many choices besides "appeared" and "performed", and "played" is impossibly for that bad guy, - nothing playful about the character, and the word misses the singing aspect - trying "portrayed" --GA
sang the solo in Beethoven's Ninth Symphony: this reads oddly to me, but I think it's grammatically fine as long as the whole sympathy was performed (that is, he was essentially one of the orchestra). Perhaps sang the solo in a performance of...?
looks like I missed "bass" --GA
Could perhaps do with a bit of explanation of the plot of Salome in order to explain the "killing my husband" joke. The title also seems to be linked on second mention.
well, not only opera goers but also bible readers and museum goers are familiar with Salome wanting the head of Jochanaan, - explaining makes jokes not always better ;) - added Tosca, where she herself kills, with a knife meant for fruit --GA
We talk about one funny line by his first wife. The specific plot (one relationship with one killing in one example) is not relevant to his biography (as explained on my talk). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:07, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Hale was a National Patron: I thinkMOS:CAPS would like this decapitalised. Worth clarifying that he was the national patron for the US, as so much of the above has focused on central Europe?
I'd like to know when he became a resident of the U.S. again, but didn't find it, - ok. --GA
all three issued on compact discs: this seems like an esoteric detail to include? Ditto with its soundtrack also issued on CD
The article has one image: nothing wrong with that, but could perhaps add images of some of these opera houses, or of the characters he played?
opera houses no, not specific to his bio, characters no, because we sadly don't have them - I'm so happy that Storye book managed to find his photograph. --GA
if more images they could perhaps be of Sills and Friedrich, people with impact on his career. --GA
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.