Talk:Robert Honywood (New Romney MP)

Requested move 17 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Robert Honywood (New Romney MP). (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 21:28, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

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Robert Honeywood → Robert Honywood (1601–1686) – Creating discussion after revert of bold move. Seems clear that his family name is Honywood ([1]), not Honeywood - although this is a common mis-spelling, or alternative spelling (along with Honiwood or Henewood). There is an abundance of sources for Honywood, including the Dictionary of National Biography (which I have added to the article along with his full date of birth); several pre-existing sources in the article also support this spelling, including Pepys and Hieron-Horridge. Disambiguation required due to other people named Robert Honywood. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 16:16, 17 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 20:48, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Following discussion below, I support an alternative target of Robert Honywood (MP for New Romney). Usual simple disambiguation by occupation or role, e.g. "politician" or "MP", would be ambiguous due to the MP for Essex (d. 1735) of the same name. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 06:14, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

What is the standard format here? I think I've usually seen articles using the format Robert Honywood (New Romney MP). Graham (talk) 03:19, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Seems to be a mix of both; personally, I think "MP for..." is most unambiguous, but either works for me. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 08:25, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Robert Honeywood → Robert Honywood (1601–1686), but would support Robert Honeywood → Robert Honywood (MP). If an entry is created for another MP, who died in 1735 and was also named "Robert Honywood", then the main title header for the MP born in 1601 can be structured as Robert Honywood (MP for New Romney), while the entry for the one who died in 1735 can be structured as Robert Honywood (MP for Essex). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 19:50, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

  My main concern was the change of spelling, with disambiguation secondary. "MP" is not unambiguous (even though the other does not yet have an article – I may create it when I have time) so I cannot support that, but would support "MP for New Romney". _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 21:44, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

If the sources say he is spelled "Honywood" then I would support change. I think either name (years) or name (occupation/role) works fine. Fredlesaltique (talk) 22:36, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

On mobile so can't edit, but the "Robert Honywood (occupation/role)" is more in line with the style guide, to differenciate from the other Robert Honywood (cricketer). If MP looks clunky, you could consider "politician", "statesman" or something similar. Quote from WP:NCPDAB - If there is no usual form of conventional disambiguation, place a disambiguating tag in parentheses after the name. Examples:

William Henry (gunsmith), William Henry (chemist), William Henry (congressman), William Henry (actor). The disambiguator is usually a noun indicating what the person is noted for being in their own right. In most cases, these nouns are standard, commonly used tags such as "(musician)" and "(politician)". Avoid using abbreviations or anything capitalized or containing hyphens, dashes, or numbers, that is apart from instances where more specific guidelines specify particular exceptions. If possible, limit the tag to a single, recognizable and highly applicable term. Fredlesaltique (talk) 22:42, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

• As the editor who reverted the bold move, I am not going to oppose this request (or a different disambiguator), but I still think it was worth discussing. The only source in the article that I was able to access directly, the Willis Notitia Parliamentaria, spelled the name "Honeywood", and seems to be a comprehensive source. Dekimasuよ! 02:30, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

@Graham: Robert Honywood (politician) or (statesman) is the recommended format, since the only other one is Robert Honywood (cricketer). See the style guide at WP:NCPDAB Fredlesaltique (talk) 04:23, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

As above, disambiguating with simply politician or statesman would not be unambiguous due to his grandson, the MP for Essex, who is presumed notable per WP:NPOL. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 08:25, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

@Wjemather: does his grandson have a wiki page? Fredlesaltique (talk) 12:09, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

@Fredlesaltique: I'm working on a draft; I could move what I have already into mainspace (if that makes things simpler). _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 12:11, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

@Wjemather: If his grandson doesn't have an article, then Robert Honywood (politician) is recommended, and I think we should change it for now. If/when his grandson does have an article, then style guide at WP:NCPDAB recommends changing to Robert Honywood (politician, born 1601) and the other guy would be Robert Honywood (politician, born ????). It's Wikipedia so not a big deal in my opinion to change this article to (politician) then change to (politician, born year) if necessary. Fredlesaltique (talk) 12:28, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

What in WP:NCPDAB recommends using the birth year where another qualifier is available? (And in the case of the MP who died in 1735, we don't have a birth year so we would use a death year in the parenthetical, if we used any year at all.) Graham (talk) 00:18, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Believe it or not, I drafted a stub last night that I was going to put up today! I just put the contents at User:Graham11/Robert Honywood in case it's still useful. Graham (talk) 00:18, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support Robert Honywood (New Romney MP). The more concise version is generally preferred. "Politician" is completely inaccurate for anyone who was an MP before about the late 18th century (and for many until well into the 19th century). Most of them weren't politicians in any sense; they were landowners or burgesses who just happened to be elected to parliament because it was the done thing if you were an influential local worthy. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:15, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support Robert Honywood (New Romney MP) per above.--Ortizesp (talk) 22:43, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.