Talk:Robinson list/Archives/2012

Article was hard to write

Folks, I hate spam and my original draft was even more one sided - but I think that the neutral point of view puts spammers up there with outright criminals, so I think it is fair to say that it is socially unacceptable - I found a source for that viewpoint and cited it.

Any comments?

Simicich 22:43, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

It's pretty good considering I'd never heard of the term previously and now have a good idea. Only problem is that using the second person is somewhat jarring and informal. I will tag it as such, since I'm a little wary of breaking the flow right now. 68.39.174.238 19:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Robinson list seems like a synonym for opt-out list Housecarl (talk) 21:51, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not clear to me from the references provided in this article that this more than a neologism at best. Without citations that refer to the term "Robinson list" it is no possible to make a good decision on whether the content of the article is best off merged or on it's own. At the moment it looks like it should be deleted. -- SiobhanHansa 02:21, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

This is a standard term in Germany, and apparently ([1]) also in Belgium. I am not sure what the English standard term(s) is/are, perhaps "opt-out list", "opt-out service" or "preference service"? In any case merging with opt-out (with no loss of information) seems like a good idea. --Hans Adler (talk) 20:43, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Good - I was worried it was something made up in school one day :) If it's just another word for an opt-out list a redirect would seem reasonable. There doesn't seem to be any content at the moment that isn't effectively covered in the opt-out article. -- SiobhanHansa 21:48, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

By the way - any (sourced) idea about the term's origin? That would make for good new content. -- SiobhanHansa 22:00, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

If I remember correctly (but it was a long time ago, so I may be wrong), ever since the term came up in Germany it was explained as a reference to Robinson Crusoe. This is also what de:Robinsonliste says (with no source), and what a German radio journalist said in a programme about the topic [2]. Theoretically it could also have been invented by someone with the surname Robinson, but I have never heard about this; if the term originated in Germany it would be very unlikely anyway. (The surname is extremely rare in Germany, but the book is well known.) I haven't reinstated the explanation because I don't trust journalists in such matters. --Hans Adler (talk) 10:04, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I saw that explanation before it was removed. Seemed odd to me so I didn't really trust it - I guess I don't really see the connection between an opt out list and being Robinson Crusoe (though it's over 20 years since I read the book :) and even stranger when you said above the term is German usage (i.e. came about in a non-English speaking countries when it was an English book). Is it known as a Robinson list or a Robinson whatever the German word for list is? Of course this is just idle curiosity on my part now...

If no one protests in the next few days I think we should go ahead and merge/redirect. -- SiobhanHansa 11:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

It's known as "die Robinsonliste" ("the Robinson list"). Here is a literal translation from the radio programme, which explains the connection: "Since 1971 there has been the 'Robinson list', on which citizens can have themselves put so as to contradict the sending of direct mail generally or, more recently, for specific areas. The Robinson list, named after Robinson Crusoe, who lived for 26 years secludedly on an island, ... ." (By the way, the year 1971 which is mentioned here makes me aware that I can't speak about the full term of the term's existence.) --Hans Adler (talk) 13:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah. I see. Thank you for the explanation. It's interesting even if it's not the most reliable source. I wasn't even aware Robinson Crusoe was well known in Germany. -- SiobhanHansa 14:27, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Good idea to merge. I note that Robinson list doesn't even explain how the name came about. I would propose a paragraph under a subheading on Opt-out to cover "Robinson list" if a citation can be found. Millstream3 (talk) 13:00, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

We had the explanation, and it was removed because there was no citation. I have found none that I would consider sufficiently reliable. I would like to say something like "It is generally believed that the term refers to Robinson Crusoe." I think a good reference for that is footnote 66 from a Dutch government report: "De algemene opvatting is dat de lijst de naam ‘Robinson lijst’ heeft gekregen naar Robinson Crusoe. Voor een marketeer plaatst de consument zich op een eiland door zich in te schrijven op een dergelijke lijst. Hoe kan de consument immers leren over nieuwe producten zonder de zo belangrijke advertenties? De consument wordt als Robinson Crusoe, gedwongen alles voor zichzelf te creëren vanuit het niets." [3] ("The general opinion is that the list got its name 'Robinson list' after Robinson Crusoe...") In my opinion this should be OK, but I am sure some think it's forbidden by WP:WEASEL. --Hans Adler (talk) 13:38, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

It seem quite possible to me that the Dutch report got its information from Wikipedia; also, might not de:Robinsonliste be simply a translation of the English article? --CliffC (talk) 14:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I found a few more reliable references. Unfortunately I don't have access to any of them: [4] [5] [6]. I found no trace of anyone with the surname Robinson writing on direct marketing, so I am quite sure the etymology is correct. --Hans Adler (talk) 13:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

• Merge - "Opt-out" is the more common expression in the marketing profession. Rklawton (talk) 15:46, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

• Don't Merge - I'm not sure if/how/why a Robinson list describes an opt-out list. However, an opt-out list is not the opt-out mechanism. It is not even required by the latter. If anything, merge the page with opt-out list. This page can be expanded by commenting the effectiveness of the examples provided, etc... opt-out is still required to describe the mechanism. ale (talk) 12:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

So essentially, you're suggesting renaming this page to Opt-out list and moving any additional relevant content from Opt-out? Millstream3 (talk) 12:40, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comment. I think opt-out is misnamed because, as Ale2006 pointed out, the connection between "opting out" (in various contexts, see e.g. Opt-outs in the European Union) and opt-out lists is not sufficiently strong to warrant a common article. (We may not need an article for opt-out in the general sense at all, per WP:NAD.) The term Robinson list seems to be specifically European, so it's also a bit unfortunate.

We seem to have two very reasonable options:

1. We could merge the two existing articles and rename the result as Direct marketing opt-out list, possibly shortened to opt-out list.

2. We could merge both articles into Direct marketing.

In my opinion, option 2 is the correct choice (see WP:MERGE, second and third reasons). In a sense our opt-out list articles are POV forks of Direct marketing. But this is exactly why I hope someone finds a good reason for option 1. --Hans Adler (talk) 14:29, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Option 2 sounds logical. Millstream3 (talk) 10:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Suggest including Crusoe in main article

I appreciate that it is not certain that the origin of the term is Robinson Crusoe (desert island) but I suggest placing this as a possible derivation on the main page, together with a request for a citation. I landed here wondering who Robinson was, and others are likely to do the same. With a bit of luck one of the visitors will be able to provide the citation. NL Derek (talk) 15:50, 16 December 2011 (UTC)