Talk:Roger Bannister/Archive 1

Archive 1

Roger Bannister race

I object to the use of the word "race" in the article on Mr. Bannister. While he did break the four-minute-mile at a meet, he was not in an actual race when he did it. Two of his friends set pace for the first 3 quarter mile laps, then he ran the last one alone, but it was not a race.

I think there once was a reluctance - perhaps even an outright refusal -- of the IAAF to certify world records in middle and long-distance track events where there had been a pacesetter employed. That's not the case anymore; the Golden League employs pacesetters, which often results in considerably faster races than in the Olympics. One of the operational definitions of a pacesetter, though, is someone who sets the pace for at least half to two-thirds of the race, and then drops out. This is not the case with Chataway or Brasher -- they finished the race, and not so far behind Bannister. There was a Bislett Mile many years ago (Steve Ovett was running in it) where the designated pacemaker established a big lead (he was, of course, a pretty good miler himself) and the other big names decided not to follow him -- so he didn't drop out, and went on to win! Bannister was helped in the pacesetting by his friends (as was Michel Jazy in his 1965 world record of 3:53.6) but he still had to beat them -- that makes it a race, for my money. It wasn't a single-person time trial. 137.82.82.134 22:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

very interesting! I've had a go at working this information be into the first paragraph on Thr 4-minute-mile section PeterGrecian 14:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

More on this. I was just browsing Bannister's memoir, The Four-Minute Mile (Fiftieth Anniversary Edition, 2004) at a bookstore I frequent. In 1953 Bannister ran new British record times for the mile of 4:03.6 and 4:02.0 (this being the third-fastest mile ever run to that date). The second time of 4:02.0 was not, however, accepted as a new British record by the British Amateur Athletic Association -- not because they doubted the timing but because they did not consider it set during a legitimate competition according to the existing rules. (In this "race" Don McMillan set the pace for the first three laps and Chris Brasher jogged the first two laps, letting Bannister lap him so that he could pace-set Bannister's last lap.) So it definitely became a conscious consideration of Bannister's that a serious attempt on the four-minute mile must be made within a "legitimate competition." 137.82.82.135 20:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Just thought I'd add a note on this as I notice some more detail on this race has been added to the above comment. This was an issue for this page August 2006 - but I added considerable detail to Bannister's pre-4 minute mile career since the above comments were written (there was little or nothing on Bannister's career pre-May 1954, it was as if he materialized from the ether and ran a fast mile...), including mention of the very race referred to above. Here is what I put in for the above-mentioned record/non-record:

"On 27 June, a mile race was inserted onto the program of the Surrey Schools athletic meeting. American Bob McMillen, silver medalist in the 1500 m at the Olympics, set a strong pace with 59.6 and 1:59.7 for two laps. He gave up after 2 1/2 laps, but Chris Brasher, 11th in that same Olympic 1500 m final, took up the pace from a lap behind. At 3/4 mile, Bannister was at 3:01.8, the record - and first sub-four-minute mile - in reach. But the effort fell short with a finish in 4:02.0, a time exceeded by only Andersson and Hagg. British officials would not allow this performance to stand as a British record which, Bannister felt in retrospect, was a good decision. "My feeling as I look back is one of great relief that I did not run a four-minute mile under such artificial circumstances," he said." Canada Jack (talk) 15:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. The eye (well, my eye) kind of passes over the phrase "took up the pace from a lap behind" without really considering what this means -- that Brasher deliberately jogged the first two laps so he could pace-set Bannister to Bannister's finish. Perhaps you might make this more explicit.

Regards, 137.82.188.68 (talk) 07:42, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I see your point. I'll change that to make it more explicit that this was a very "artificial" attempt. Canada Jack (talk) 15:13, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't sure if my memory was faulty, but I checked Bannister's The Four-Minute Mile (fiftieth anniversary edition) and it was indeed the Australian runner Don Macmillan (9th in the 1500 m final at the 1952 Olympics), not the U.S. runner Bob McMillen, who set the pace for the first 2 1/2 laps of Bannister's 4:02.0 mile. (Reminds me of the easy confusion between Robert C. Tucker and Robert W. Tucker -- both U.S. political scientists.) Regards, 137.82.188.68 (talk) 02:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Ouch! That was my mistake. I re-checked my reference - The Milers by Nelson and Quercetani - and, sure enough, I had gotten Macmillan and McMillen confused. Canada Jack (talk) 16:07, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I checked Bannister's book again (it's at a bookstore a block from where I live; I haven't bothered to buy it!) and Chris Brasher was not in the 1952 Olympic 1500m final -- he wasn't competing in the event. There were two other British runners who did not reach the final. Brasher did compete in the mile for the 1954 British Empire Games but he did not reach the final. Regards, 137.82.188.68 (talk) 03:42, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

KBE / CBE

If Roger Bannister is CBE and not KBE, how is he entitled to use "Sir" before his name? I'm pretty sure he must be KBE. What a load of rubbish. You are wrong Ok —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.56.170 (talk) 18:01, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Well I donit know if he was ever awarded the KBE, but what is certain is that he appeared in the New Years' Honours list in Jan 1975 being made a Knight Bachelor. There are no post nominal letters for this, which perhaps explains why his CBE is the only honour mentioned after his name in the article's first line. The knighthood for his sports counil work is mentioned in the article. -- Op. Deo 14:43, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The belief that knighthood = KBE seems to be rather common. In actual fact, KBE is a relatively rare form of knighthood and Knight Bachelor (which indeed carries no postnom letters) is by far the commonest. Roger Bannister was made CBE and then a Knight Bachelor - the two awards are completely different and one does not therefore supersede the other. -- Necrothesp 17:31, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

People are still trying to make Sir Roger a KBE. What he got in 1975 was a Knight Bachelor. His Debretts People of Today 2006 entry reads BANNISTER, Sir Roger Gilbert kt (1975), CBE (1955) . Apparently the letters kt are not normally used.-- Op. Deo 15:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism?

what the heck is this doing in the "early running" section BEFORE he broke the 4 min. mile:

"Bannister suffered defeat, however, when Yugoslav Andrija Otenhajmer, aware of Bannister's final-lap kick, took a 1500 m race in Belgrade 25 August out at near-record pace, forcing Bannister to close the gap by the bell lap. Otenhajmer won in 3:47.0, Bannister set a personal best finishing second in 3:48.4. Bannister was no longer seen as invincible."

sorry i didn't realize this was a 1500m as opposed to the mile. it did look ridiculous at the time though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.118.66.112 (talk) 20:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Uh... because the race took place before he broke the 4 minute mile! Canada Jack (talk) 20:34, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Shortest record

"Bannister, arguably the most famous record-setter in the mile, is also the man who held the record for the least amount of time, at least since the IAAF started to ratify records." This is clearly not correct. In August 1981, Coe and Ovett changed the World mile record three times in ten days, and twice in two days. 87.112.71.220 (talk) 06:38, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I didn't see this at the time. I am re-inserting the text. I one rereads what was originally here, viz "the man who held the record the least amount of time," the statement is correct. Coe's record of 3:48.53 stood seven days, Ovett's record of 3:48.40 stood two days, but each of these men held the mile record in excess of a year (Ovett's 1980 record stood more than a year; Coe's 3:47.33 set in 1981 stood almost four years.) Canada Jack (talk) 22:22, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I see that the text was never removed. Never mind.... Canada Jack (talk) 22:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Reason for his knighthood

It's very unclear to me exactly what his knighthood was for.

• This says: "He was knighted for his services to neurology in 1975".

• This says: "He was knighted in 1975 for his outstanding medical service and his chairmanship of the United Kingdom National Sport Council".

• This can't make up its mind. It says: "Also in 1975, Bannister was knighted by Queen Elizabeth, receiving the title "Sir Roger Bannister." The honor was not in recognition of his running, but of his life's work as a runner and a physician".

Do we have access to the exact citation so that we can settle this once and for all? -- JackofOz (talk) 23:43, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

The Times 2 Jan 1975 - "Another knighthood for sport goes to Dr Roger Bannister, former chairman of the Sports Council". Also "Knights Bachelor.... Bannister, Roger Gilbert lately chairman, the Sports Council": Op. Deo (talk) 13:07, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Given the above sources, I wouldn't trust what any newspaper said, even The Times. Maybe they simply assumed he was honoured for what he was best known for, but that may not be the case. We really need to see the formal citation. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:45, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I would put put considerable weight on what it says in The Times and other newspapers published on the day after the new year's honours for 1975 were officially announced. These are contemporary reports of a list of honours published by the government, and therefore pretty much primary sources. These lists always contain in just a word or two the principal reason for the award. If you really doubt The Times reporting of the official list we could of course cross check as to how other newspapers reported the official list. I would not rely very much on the websites you have linked to since these are secondary or tertiary sources and do not give their references. Of course additional factors would have almost certainly been considered by the honours committee but the formal principal reason remains that it was for the service Bannister had done as chairman of the Sports Council. My guess is that we would only be able to find out what other factors were formally considered if we got access the the official papers of the honours committee. I am not sure when these would be released for public examination. In my mind all other reasons which are put forward, while they are plausible contributors, have not based on a solid citation but may be a biographer's speculation. - Op. Deo (talk) 09:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Is there not a website where the details of all British honours can be quickly accessed - like It's an Honour, the database of Australian honours? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:17, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

That is a neat website. I have not come across anything like that for UK. I usually use the papers' published lists, but you have to know when to look. Following your prompt I find the official UK government London Gazette is online here. You have to search for what you are looking for and this took a little time to master but eventually I found the issue for 31 Dec 1974 which states Bannister's award, exactly as reprinted in the Times two days later. So that is probably the best you can do, but you will have to master the search procedure: --Op. Deo (talk) 22:12, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

OK, thanks. That says "Lately Chairman, The Sports Council", which seems to settle it. No mention of his involvement in sport as a competitor, and certainly no mention of services to medicine. Excellent. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:24, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course many years earlier he had got the CBE for his running. You dont get two awards for the same achievement. Yet another case where the Wikipedia article is more accurate than rubbish in other biogs and websites. It really irritates me when the UK media takes cheap shots at Wikipedia on grounds of accuracy. After all WP has all many serious editors working hard on sorting out such discrepancies by reference to reliable sources! Keep up the good work JackofOZ. Op. Deo (talk) 14:32, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, and you're more than welcome. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:32, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Live outside running

Does this man have zero life outside of running ? 86.42.127.210 (talk) 19:18, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Considering what a distinguished career he has had in medicine and academia, the article does seems a little one-dimensional. He is also married with four children, which I don't believe is mentioned. Perhaps a section on his later life and career outside running could be added? ANB (talk) 16:40, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Dispute

hi there im in dispute over roger bannister being the 1sr athlete to run the sub 4 minute mile.reason my grandfather who was a private in the royal hampshire regt ran the 1st sub 4 minute mile in the 1930s year not exactly known by me and this was not reckonized by the olympic or commonwealth games records as he was a serving soldier his name was alfred george ryves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.206.188.121 (talk) 13:54, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

World records have to be set under standard conditions in a recognized meet. Many have claims to have set "world records" outside of the recognized world records but, by definition, they haven't as the rules haven't been followed. In the mile, there are numerous claims to have run a sub 4:00 mile before Bannister, but Bannister was the first one to do it under conditions which were ratifiable. Indeed, he made an attempt earlier with rabbits which likely would not have stood as a world record if he had ran sub-4:00. See the section "Bannister sets a new goal". Canada Jack (talk) 14:06, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Bannister carries Olympic flag

Should this article not mention how, as was mentioned on the news on Radio Four on July 10 2012, that Bannister has now become the latest person to carry the Olympic Flag? ACEOREVIVED (talk) 14:58, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

The assertion in the 'Sub-4-minute Mile' section that there were 6 men entered in the Mile, three from Oxford and three AAA runners,is incorrect. There were in fact 7 men entered, as is shown in the programme in my possession (I was in fact running on the day in a different event) - namely 41 R.G. Bannister, 42 C.J. Chataway, 43 W.T. Hulatt and 44 C.W Brasher for the AAA and 15 G.F. Dole, 16 A.D. Gordon and 58 T.N. Miller for Oxford. Why the AAA team had four runners I do not know; but surmise that Hulatt had been entered before it had been decided that a record attempt would be made requiring Brasher's presence. Be that as it may, a photo of the start shows the four men concerned all wearing AAA vests.

However, a curious footnote is that only 6 of those entered actually took part in the race: the seventh man, Nigel Miller, inadvertently missed it because he only discovered that he was supposed to be running when he turned up as a spectator at the track and had neither time to go back for his kit and spikes nor was he able to borrow any.Lotsafun (talk) 17:14, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

The full form of the "impossible" four-minute mile myth

Just for completeness, I note that the full form of the four-minute mile myth (myth in the Joseph Campbell sense, not necessarily pejorative) -- which I have seen in several books on self-help psychology -- goes something like this: the four-minute mile was once thought to be impossible, but after Bannister broke the psychological barrier "dozens" (or "a dozen") of runners went under four minutes in the next few months. The parable of the myth-story is: "if you think you can't do it, you won't" (true, as a general principle). As stated in the article an informed observer would not think that lowering the world record by another 1.4 seconds impossible given that Hagg and Andersson had already lowered the pre-WWII record by 5 seconds in a series of head to head races. The second part of the myth is not true either: Bannister and Landy were the only runners to run under four minutes in the 1954 track season (twice each), there were three more new sub-4 runners in 1955, and five more in 1956. Collectively these runners might have run a total of a few-dozen sub-4 races in the two or three years after Bannister (Landy ran a total of 6), but there was not a few-dozen different sub-4 runners. It was the widespread recognition and adoption of interval training methods that gradually resulted in more sub-4 milers, not the breaking of any "psychological barrier." (Online reference: Sub-4 Register in Date Sequence )

I personally find the refutation of this widely-repeated (and harmless, as far as I can see) myth-story a useful beginning lesson in historiography in that people have heard of it, might superficially believe it, but are not emotionally wedded to it and can see that it only takes a little effort to go behind the veneer of the myth-story with the (uncontested) historical facts. 137.82.188.68 01:51, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting. Thanks. May even be worth a section in about the myth in the Four-minute mile article. There is also some similar discussion on that article's talk page. -- Solipsist 10:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd add that if sportswriters wanted to they could talk up the story of the 1:40 (100 seconds, a nice round number) "barrier" in the 800m race with more justice than probably ever was the case with the four-minute mile "barrier." Sebastian Coe's 1981 world record of 1:41.73 stood for 16 years and remarkably is still -- 25 years later -- tied for third best time ever in the 800m; Wilson Kipketer's world record set in 1997 is 1:41.11 -- so there has only been .6 second improvement in the 800m record in 25 years, whereas there was a 4 to 5 second improvement in the 1500m/mile record during the same period. 137.82.188.68 03:14, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Another thought: it seems to me that one could plausibly argue that the essential seed of the "psychological barrier shattered" part of the mythology is due to the fact that John Landy attempted to run a four-minute mile several times before Bannister (and ran fast miles for the time, 4:02 or 4:03) but failed, and then he did "break through" (either with the advantage of Chris Chattaway's pacing or his own interval training coming to fruition) only 46 days after Bannister, to a 3:58 mile (4 or 5 seconds faster than Landy had previously run) which stood as the world record for 3 years. By 1960 there were a half-dozen to a dozen new four-minute milers per season. So the "barrier shattered" myth is kind of a conflation of Landy's personal history and a fore-shortening of a time interval of several years for other runners to Landy's interval of 46 days. It seems to me that this part of the myth would not have arisen if Bannister's record had stood for two or three years. Again, this is for me a useful exercise in historiography, in that historical myths must have some foundation in reality if they are to flourish (without institutional backing, at least). 137.82.188.68 (talk) 21:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Example reference(s) to the myth

Here is one recent repeat of the myth, from the essay/review Getting High on the Himalayas by Al Alvarez in the July 2, 2009 issue of The New York Review of Books (page 29):

"... The conquest of Annapurna by the French, followed three years later by British success (at last) on Everest by Hillary and Tenzing, were like Chuck Yeager's breaking of the sound barrier in 1947 and Roger Bannister's four-minute mile in 1954; they broke a psychological barrier about how much the human body could withstand and at what altitude it would cease to function. ..." (Al Alvarez) 137.82.188.162 (talk) 03:15, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

We know that Bannister attached no special significance to the 4-minute mile. I inserted this significant point into the lede, but it was deleted. Valetude (talk) 19:14, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

The runners in the race

Having just made my first posting, I have now realised I should have given the new topic a heading, which I now do. Sorry, folksLotsafun (talk) 17:32, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

I have noticed that there is no mention of Dr Bannister's military service. He was a captain in the Royal Army Medical Corp when I served under him in 1957. He was admired by us leeser mortals because many of his stature would evade Nation Service. The 2 years conscription oung men had to do in Britain in those days.

I would like to add a small section to the article once I have had help to write it. I don't know if I can link to my blog -where I can write freely or should I write it her. I am a total beginner with the Internet.

____ — Preceding unsigned comment added by RoySmithy (talk • contribs) 13:58, 11 February 2015 (UTC)