Talk:Roko Malani

Requested move 9 September 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: pages moved. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 17:00, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

---

• Malani → Roko Malani
• Malani (disambiguation) → Malani

– Not the primary topic. See for example, page views and google search. DrKay (talk) 16:42, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• Support per nom, not sure why full name isn't used anyway but even still it would probably qualify for natural disambiguation anyway. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:24, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support and swap with Malani (disambiguation) In ictu oculi (talk) 12:42, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

  I've added this to the RM. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:30, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 14 September 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Speedy close. Duplicate RM and as noted we don't use slashes (non-admin closure). Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:28, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

---

Malani → Malani/Roko Malani – The requested move denies a full background of the historical names of both Roko Malani and Malani. The person that was alive 200 years ago has maternal links to the family at the latter part of the article. Disambiguation only arises when information are in pieces and not packaged together with academic sourced Fijian history. Why were the quoted articles including the Malani definition in the Fijian dictionary deleted? Saqiwa (talk) 13:47, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose Unnecessary duplication. Use of a slash, which is only used for subpages of a page (outside article space). DrKay (talk) 14:01, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
• Justification Maintain the the title Malani and not necessarily a slash with Roko Malani to maintain credibility in the article and undue disintegrated Fijian historical information. There is no unnecessary duplication.Saqiwa (talk) 14:30, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Descendants

@Saqiwa, only in a few very rare cases such as in articles about royal houses do we talk about an entire family tree. The family tree must be notable in and of itself, otherwise we just link to related articles. The article jumps between a Roko Malani who died in 1833 to a Roko Malani who was alive in 1879, and is confusing as it jumps between lineages without a clear connection between them. Which sources discuss Roko Malani's (1754–1833) descendants as a whole? – Thjarkur (talk) 17:19, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

@Thjarkur Ok go ahead and change the title to Roko Malani. Roko Malani (Lau) who died in 1833 is the grandnephew of the Roko Malani (Lau) who was visiting another province (Ra) in 1879 and named the child that was born on the morning of his visit as Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani. They were from different provinces. By coincidence in 1910, Roko Malani's younger brother, (Roko Vilisoni Tuiketei)'s daughter, Adi Senirewa was visiting her cousin, Adi Maopa (Ratu Sukuna's mother)at the Ra Provincial Office in Nanukuloa when the people of Nakorotubu decided to traditionally approach her to be the wife of the young Roko Malani who was a constabulary officer in Levuka town.Saqiwa (talk) 05:55, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

@Thjarkur Other Roko Malani persons are listed for clarity to the article.Saqiwa (talk) 09:43, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Break from Roko Malani article

Marchjuly (talk) Ok, as you have requested in my Saqiwa (talk), I will take a break but please understand that I was not trying to compete and be on top of other editors. I just hope that fellow administrators/editors may be able to learn a thing or two from my observation and concerns at the oppressive and strongman tactics to my contributions in 'Other' Roko Malani, Nakorotubu, Roko Tui Bau, Monarchy of Fiji, Tui Viti, Vunivalu of Bau, etc. The first Roko Malani article was not well sourced and I actually assisted with the 2 back up sources, likewise for Niumataiwalu as a high chief from Verata, etc. Ironically, the selective and unfair editing observed from the past continues with the unjustified removal of my contributions to articles like 'Other' Roko Malani, Nakorotubu, Roko Tui Bau, Monarchy of Fiji, Tui Viti, Vunivalu of Bau, etc. I shun your view that I will not go far but all that I was trying to do was to assist Wikipedia with complete information and not disjointed to misrepresent and benefit one particular group. As I have raised in the past, historical information about Fiji have been used to further political, commercial and individual agendas. Even for the article on Nakorotubu, the deletion of the correct sub district names like Kavula is really strange considering that back up sources like the UNICEF report and the Wikipedia Fiji House of Chiefs clearly outlines the correct names that I have been trying to edit correctly. For your information, the Nakorotubu marine area contains minerals and oil deposits which have been targeted with misinformation to create instability and dispute with the local people in order to justify access opportunities by external interested parties. Ok, fellow Wikipedia editors, for everybody's peace, I will now take a walk. God Bless Fiji. Saqiwa (talk) 06:31, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@Saqiwa: I was posting the following in response to the "Discussing Roko Malani article" you started here, but subsequently removed and replaced with the above.

I think what needs to be determined is what the real focus of this article is intended to be. Is "Roko Malani" the name of a specific person or is it them name of some sort of hereditary/tribal title? It currently reads as if it's about a particular individual named "Roko Malani" and if that's the case then that's what the article content should be about; it shouldn't include content about other individuals named "Roko Malani". In other words, it shouldn't be made into a disambiguation page to provide information about all individuals named "Roko Malani".

For example, look at the page John Smith. That is what Wikipedia refers to as a "disambiguation page" or "dab page". Basically, a dab page is list of all Wikipedia pages which have a common title, but have been disambiguated accordingly to allow separate Wikipedia articles about each "John Smith" mentioned on the page to be created. All of the entries on the dab page represent articles about different people named John Smith. It's basically a page of Wikilinks to each of these individual articles, sort of like a Wikipedia phone book for people named "John Smith". So, if there's lots of people throughout Fijian history named "Roko Malani", then it might be appropriate to create a dab page titled "Roko Malani", where links to all of their respective articles can be listed; however, it would be inappropriate to add all of that information to any one single Wikipedia article about a particular "Roko Malani". Instead, if you think these other "Roko Malani" are notable enough per WP:BIO to have Wikipedia articles created about them, then you can create these articles. I would suggest that you work on a draft first and submit it to WP:AFC for review, but that's up to you. If it turns out that some or all of these "Roko Malani" are not considered to be Wikipedia notable for stand-alone articles to be written about them, then content about them shouldn't be added to an article about this "Roko Malani" simply because they share the same name. Now, if there's some kind of connection (family, etc.) between this "Roko Malani" and the others that goes beyond just sharing the same name, then perhaps that can be mentioned in proper context. Editors shouldn't, however, try to WP:COATRACK an article about other Roko Malanis into this article because that's neither how Wikipedia works nor is intended to work.

On the other hand, if "Roko Malani" is more of a hereditary/religious/tribal title like King of England, Dali Lama, Pope, etc., then the page should be written as such and not as if it's about a particular person named "Roko Malani". It might then be possible to provide some content about each person who has held the title of "Roko Malani" throughout history, but that shouldn't be the focus of the article and the content about each person should be limited per WP:NOTEVERYTHING and also be supported by citations to reliable sources for verification purposes.

This next part is more in response to your "Break from Roko Malani article" post that this thread has now become. It's not really the kind of thing discussed on article talk pages but I'll post it here as a courtesy.

If you want to take a break from this article for awhile or even from editing altogether, then you can decide to do so. We are, after all, WP:VOLUNTEERS. However, you need to try and understand that it's not the purpose of this article or any Wikipedia article to try and resolve real world problems regarding Fiji and how it's being reported or not be reported in the reliable sources. Wikipedia's role is not to seek out the ultimate truth about things, but only reflect what reliable sources (ideally independent and secondary) are saying about things.

-- Marchjuly (talk) 08:02, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Marchjuly (talk). There is a maternal relationship between the 3 Roko Malanis although they are from 2 different provinces. Perhaps you can have a look at the Draft:Roko Malani (1879–1933) that was started by Thjarkur (talk) and let us discuss your option between disambiguation or one joint article that includes their relationships.I would favor the latter as it summaries the Malani definition in the English Fijian dictionary by Cornell University.. On the side can you explain again why two other quoted sources cannot be used for Roko Malani (1879-1933) and his grandson, Roko Malani (2) both from Ra on the Fiji Sun, (1) (10th October, 2015)  http://fijisun.com.fj/2015/10/10/opinion-cleaning-up-our-history-a-way-forward-for-itaukei/ .Saqiwa (talk) 09:23, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

The Fijisun article does not verify the information you want to add and it is an opinion piece and thus not a reliable source at all. Please only summarize what reliable secondary sources have said. – Thjarkur (talk) 11:24, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

References

Thjarkur (talk), please check the summary of the reliable secondary sources below.

1. Roko Malani (1879-1933) of Ra. Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (1) was the son of Ratu Amenatave Dewalarua and Seleima Veinoyaki and grandson of Ra chief, Ratu Meli Salabogi (1) who is mentioned in the W.J. Smythe report. .Married Adi Asinate Senirewa from the Vuanirewa clan, the daughter of Roko Vilisoni Tuiketei (younger brother of Roko Malani (2) (died 1890) that named him at birth).

2. Roko Malani (1937-2013) of Ra. Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (2), the brother of Adi Laufitu Malani and grandson of Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (1) traditionally endorsed and spent a night at Vatanitawake in Bau during the Vunivalu of Bau installation in 1959.

References

Saqiwa (talk) 04:41, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Marchjuly (talk). Your latest comment not to force the article on Roko Malani on (talk) raised to me a question if this is a really free editing online article? I thought that we are all volunteers here and no group of phantom editors should be dictating or feel good about a particular article, so what is really the problem? My editing history proves that there is indeed ulterior motives with the continuous changes in reasonings. Refer to the latest Nakorotubu editing history today, it is obvious that some Fiji historical information is definitely being suppressed and covered up. Saqiwa (talk) 05:32, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Saqiwa (talk) 05:50, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

@Saqiwa: Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia that anyone can edit, but edits need to be done in accordance with relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines. You're discussing things here on the talk page with Thjarkur and if you're going to ask him to review something, you need to be a little more patient and give him a chance to respond. Editors sometimes get WP:BUSY or they may be located across the world from each other; so, while you're up and ready to edit, the other person may still be sleeping. Thjarkur has been discussing things with you here in good faith, so try and give him more than a few hours to respond.

Now for the content you're trying to add, it appears that it has to do with three different people named Roko Malani. Assuming these other Roko Milanis are Wikipedia notable, the thing to do would be to create separate articles about each of them (even perhaps a WP:STUB) and then link all of the articles together using WP:WIKILINKs. If all three of them are related as you stated above, then perhaps content about this relationship can be added to each of these articles along with the links. For example, perhaps a sentence like "Roko Milani is also related to Roko Malani (1879-1933) and Roko Milani (1937-2013) maternally, etc." can be added as part of the content about the Roko Milani who the subject of this article. If the other two individuals named Roko Milani are not notable enough for Wikipedia articles to be written about them, perhaps you can still add content about their relationship with the subject of this article, but you shouldn't try to create mini articles about them in this article. That's considered WP:COATRACKing and not how Wikipedia works. This article is not intended to be an article about all persons named Roko Malani.

I'm assuming you've read the sources your citing in support of this "new" content. Are the available anywhere online? They don't have to be, but it will be easier for others to verifying their reliability and context if they can actually read the source themselves. You've describe one of the sources as an editorial, but "editorials" are not always considered to be reliable sources for Wikipedia purposes. Another source is describe as a "Fijilive website report", but again this could be just WP:UGC content that's not considered to be a reliable source. You're also citing sources from as far back as 1862 for someone who wasn't born until 1879, which seems like it's not going to be very useful at all. If you want to add content to this article which states that all three Roko Milani's are maternally related, you're going to have to find sources that explicitly say they are; sources which mention someone's grandfather by name or which gives origin of the Roko Milani name, but which don't specifically mention each of these three individuals aren't going to be very useful.

If you keep seeing a WP:CONSPIRACY where there is none and it's really you for the most part who is not editing according to relevant policies and guidelines, then the ANI discussion currently ongoing about your behavior is unlikely to end well for you. You need to try and see other editors as being WP:HERE and not assume that everyone disagreeing with your edits is doing so out of some desire to suppress information about Fiji on Wikipedia. It could be just as likely that your editing history will lead others to feel that you've been trying to use Wikipedia in a way that it's not intended to be used. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:54, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

I have no problems with your threats since you can selectively pull your justifications.Even Thjarkur has not responded for days to the above edits but you just jump in when I have posted something on after waiting for days. Saqiwa (talk) 06:14, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Interesting that the main Roko Malani article was all of sudden clean up to be up to standard with the wikipedia rules. Question, why was the other 2 Roko Malani articles not assisted in the same way. All of a sudden, sources from ISBN books became part of the article. Why was not the same extent of assistance given to the 2 Roko Malani from Ra?Saqiwa (talk) 07:09, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Are there already articles written about these two other individuals named Roko Milani because I'm only finding this article when I search Wikipedia? Can you provide links to their respective articles? If there's already Wikipedia articles written about them, there's no need to create new Wikipedia articles about them. It's also not clear why you keep linking to Ra because that's an article about an Egyptian god and seems to have nothing to do with anyone named Roko Milani or Fiji. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:29, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Never mind about the "Ra" link. I'm pretty sure you mean Ra Province. If you want to just write "Ra", you should pipe the link using the syntax [[Ra Province|Ra]] so that it leads to the correct target article. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:37, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Marchjuly (talk). Thanks so from your comment, I can now post up the above draft on the 2 Roko Malanis from "Ra"?Saqiwa (talk) 18:10, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

@Saqiwa: I pointed out a problem with the way you were Wikilink "Ra"; however, that's not the only problem with the content you keep trying to re-add to this article. These three Roko Malanis are different people, right? They may be related in some way, but they are still different people. So, you should create separate articles for the other two (if they are Wikipedia notable) and then add links to those articles to this article along with a sourced sentence or two explaining how they are related to this Roko Malani. You should not try the create mini articles for them in this article. This has been pointed out before more than once by not only myself but others.

Now, if you're going to create articles about these two other Roko Malanis, you're going to need to cite much better sources that what you're currently citing it to avoid the articles being nominated for deletion. The sources you're citing seem WP:QUESTIONABLE at best, and are almost impossible to verify since they are either quite old, not available online, or a combination of both. Editorials are almost never going to be considered to be a reliable sources for Wikipedia purposes accept in certain cases as explained in WP:NEWSBLOG, but the 2009 Fiji Times "50 years on, Kubuna Beckons" editorial you're citing might be OK to use in a certain context depending on who wrote it and what it's actually about. Can you possibly provide a link to it for verification? Are there any more contemporary reliable sources, e.g. books, newspaper articles, magazine articles which mention these two other Roko Malani's and more importantly mention their relationship to this Roko Malani? Something which gives them significant coverage and explicitly mentions their relationship to this Roko Malani would be really helpful. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:43, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Marchjuly (talk) The Fiji Times online link for Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (2) from Ra regarding the Fiji Times "50 years on, Kubuna Beckons" is not working. The family tree which shows the link by marriage through Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (1)'s wife Adi Asinate Senirewa from the Vuanirewa clan is not available on-line as well. The only source available that can be verified online is the Cornell University Fijian-English dictionary definition of Malani which summarises how Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (1) was named at birth in Nakorotubu Ra in 1879 by his wife's father (Roko Vilisoni Tuiketei) older brother, Roko Malani (2) from the Vuanirewa clan (both younger brothers of Ratu Tevita Uluilakeba (1)- Ratu Kamisese Mara's grandfather) who was on a short visit to his puakaloa maternal relatives- Kapaiwai family. These three brothers coincidentally later became in-laws of Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani from Ra. They were grandsons of Roko Malani Tui Nayau in the article.

References

Saqiwa (talk) 12:08, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Please try and stop trying to Wikilink to "Ra" like this: [[Ra]]. The correct way to link to "Ra Province" is [[Ra Province]]. If you simply link to the word "Ra" it will take you to the article Ra which is about an Egyptian god and doesn't have anything to do with Fiji. If you want to just use the word "Ra" in your posts and link to the article about "Ra Province", you're going to have to WP:PIPE format the link as [[Ra Province|Ra]]; it will look like Ra, but it will take the reader to the correct target article. If you read this and still don't understand what I mean, click on Ra (formatted as [[Ra]]) and then click on Ra (formatted as [[Ra Province|Ra]] and perhaps you'll understand better. Both links look the same to the reader, but they are formatted to take the reader to different articles.

You don't need to add references to this talk page like this: <ref>reference name</ref>. You can do that, but the software will automatically display the references at the bottom of this page by default unless you also use a template like Template:Reflist-talk to tell the software where to display the references. If the references are displayed at the bottom of the page, they will eventually be separated from the relevant discussion when someone adds a new post at the bottom of the page. Sometimes when discussing sources on a talk page, it's easier just to link to them like [url address source name] with an embedded link instead; for example, if I wanted to discuss a source, I could add a link to it as [www.example.com sourcename] in the relevant sentence which would look like sourcename to the reader. Embedded links shouldn't be added to articles, but they are OK to use on talk pages.

I'm not sure what you're trying to show with the Fijian-English dictionary source; perhaps that can be used to show where the name "Malani" comes from in a Wikipedia article like Malani, but it doesn't real establish the notability of any of the three Roku Malani's being discussed on this talk page, and it's doesn't clearly establish any relationship between the three (at least not as you're describing things). You need to be careful and avoid WP:SYN and not combine your personal knowledge/interpretations with what a reliable source says or combine what's found in different reliable sources into something neither of them are really saying. I've looked at page 159 of the dictionary you're trying to cite and there is no entry for "Malani"; it's possible you've gotten the page number wrong since there is a mention of "Malani" as a name on page 153 in the definition for "Mala" as in "Mala ni vosa", but only states that it's a "family name in Lau originally, but now famously at Nakorotubu, Ra." It doesn't say anything about these three Roku Malanis or them being related to one another maternally. That may be something you know from school or somewhere else and it may be true, but Wikipedia requires verifiability and dictionary doesn't support the content you want to add.

If these other two Roko Milanis aren't suitable for you to write separate Wikipedia articles about (i.e. they are not Wikipedia notable), then it may be possible to add their names to an article like List of Fijians. Since they don't already have articles written about them, other editors may disagree with doing so and ask you to provide a citation to a reliable source in support. You can try adding their names and a single sentence about them to that article (be consistent with the other entries). If your edit is challenged by another editor, then follow WP:BRD and discuss things at Talk:List of Fijians. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:43, 19 October 2019 (UTC)