Talk:Romaine-la-Prophétesse

Notes regarding article title, surname use, and pronoun use

I'd like to note three editorial decisions I made in creating this article:

1. I put the article at Romaine-la-Prophétesse as this is AFAICT the most commonly used name. Sources also mention the apparent (possibly unoriginal and gallicized, see the footnote and its references in the article) birth name Romaine Rivière or as a few spell it Romain Rivière, but AFAICT more sources (more often) refer to the person as Romaine-la-Prophétesse or Romaine than as Romaine Rivière; Romaine-la-Prophétesse is also the person's chosen name as well as the one with person became notable and did most notable activities under.
2. Because many (most?) reference works mostly refer to this person by first name rather than last name, I am unsure how the article body text should refer to the person, but I went with surname, since WP:SURNAME says to use surname except for "those historical persons who are known by names-and-patronymics instead of surnames", and "la-Prophétesse" is not a patronymic.
3. I avoided pronouns, as is done for several other historical figures where it's debated/unclear whether the person was cis or trans / what gender [identity] they had / what pronouns to use, like the surgeon James Barry or the Public Universal Friend.

If anyone can think of a way any of this or anything else could/should be done better, comment away or be bold. -sche (talk) 18:59, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Think Romaine will go viral like PUF? :P

Regarding the name, if they are mostly known by "Romaine-la-Prophétesse"/"Romaine" then I think that's what we should go with, not "Rivière". This section of WP:SURNAME may apply here: If they use their mononym or pseudonym exclusively, then use that name (e.g. Aaliyah, Selena, Usher, and Madonna). WanderingWanda (talk) 06:58, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

....-sche: I'm going to be WP:BOLD and switch to first name, per my arguments above, and he/him pronouns. If there are objections of course please revert/discuss.

Regarding Romaine's pronouns, I couldn't find any indication that Romaine ever asked people to use feminine pronouns or to not use pronouns or anything along those lines. If he did, I imagined it would be easy to find it in the sources, like how the feminine "prophetess" label is widely recorded. On top of that, sources seem to overwhelmingly refer to Romaine with he/him pronouns, including Professor Terry Rey's book The Priest and the Prophetess, which seems to be the most up-to-date in-depth source on Romaine (it was published in 2017).

With all that said, I couldn't find explicit confirmation that Romaine went by he/him pronouns, so I actually emailed Terry Rey about it. Here's his response (quoted with permission):

In earlier drafts of the book, I had used alternative pronouns and even employed in places the term "transgender", but then, in consultation with my editors, I came to the conclusion that such would have been anachronistic. So, in the end, I stuck to the contemporary pronouns used to refer to Romaine, which were without exception masculine. Even in letters that Romaine dictated in which he is spoken of in the third person, "he" "him" and "his" are used.

The Prophetesse title was, I believe, deeply spiritual and in keeping with the religious feminization of Africana spirit possession priests. "Romaine" is also a feminine name, incidentally, as the masculine version in French is "Romain."

Well, that clinched it, at least for me: if Romaine himself used he/him, and if sources, including a fairly recent source, use he/him, let's just use he/him.

This seems to be a different situation than the Public Universal Friend article (which honors PUF's explicit wish not to be gendered) and the James Barry article (which currently takes a middle ground position between how Barry himself wished to be remembered and how sources often choose to refer to him.) WanderingWanda (talk) 01:37, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Ah, that's a good "find". :) I had avoided pronouns because I couldn't find any clear evidence like that of the person's own preference. (Self-ID as a "prophetess" suggested femininity, but supposed self-ID as a "godson" suggested masculinity, but also, it was less certain that the latter was a self-ID, and ditto the supposed intention of being a "king" which was posited by critics.) (Like you say, most of the references I saw use masculine pronouns/terms, apart from a couple recent less-in-depth ones, the irrelevant fictional zombie one, and one old edition of Hugo, which deviates from the French original and from other English editions by using feminine pronouns, apparently under the influence of the name and unfamiliarity with the person, heh.) -sche (talk) 18:27, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Romaine-la-Prophétesse/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Whiteguru (talk · contribs) 00:34, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Starts GA Review; the review will follow the same sections of the Article. --Whiteguru (talk) 00:34, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

 

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Observations

• Note [a] is a good explanation of the usage of the birth name, and supported.

• The lede is only one sentence with multiple references. References are normally left out of the lede, as it gives the reader an overall introduction to the article. See MOS:LEAD --> The average Wikipedia visit is a few minutes long. The lead is the first thing most people will read upon arriving at an article, and may be the only portion of the article that they read.

• and was friends with three successive curés of the parish of Léogâne --> three successive Curates of the parish of

• some petits blancs (poor whites) ... Although the recognised languages of Haiti are French and Haiti Creole, it is best to use English. See MOS:FOREIGN Use poor whites

• maréchaussée --> use constabulary. Remove the link to Gendarmerie, they did not exist as such in 1791.

• According to Manual of Style MOS:REPEATLINK the first instance of a word that needs linking gets the link: In the 1791-2 uprising, there is a link to Léogâne; remove this link as there is an earlier link in the section Life before 1791.

• petit blanc named Delisle de Bresolle.[45] --> change to poor white

• if you want to keep the royalist de Villards, rewrite the following: put the black leader in charge of one of a European colony's most important cities.[48] The royalist de Villards served as mayor.[41][49]

    to put the black leader in charge of one of a European colony's most important cities[48] where the royalist de Villards served as mayor.[41][49]

• During a Te Deum Mass on New Year's Day in St. Rose de Lima (There is no such thing as a te deum mass. Te deum is a prayer attached to the Liturgy of the Hours.) Use High Mass instead.

• French commissaire --> French commissioner

• which was reinforced by Saint-Léger's soldiers. Who is Saint-Léger?

• This quote is confusing. --> Romaine preached that God was black,[68][69] and said Mass with a saber in hand.[5][70] Who is saying Mass? Romaine or God?

• In the lede, you may be at risk saying, as well as a figure in the nascence of Haitian Vodou. You report conflicting statements from scholars in the final section, Religious, ethnic, and gender identity and interpretations. It may be better to say it is speculated that Romaine was a figure in the emergence of Haitian Vodou.

• Generally good work, a bit of clearing up matters indicated above. --Whiteguru (talk) 06:53, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

 On hold

Thank you for this feedback! I've expanded the lead, simply dropping the bit about possibly being Catholic or possibly being vodouisant;  Done

I had intended it to be read with "likely" applying to both items in the list, "Romaine was likely Catholic, and also, Romaine was likely a figure in the nascence of Haitian Vodou", but rereading it now I realize you're right that the qualification of the sentence half of the sentence didn't come across. I switched it to "curate" as you suggested  Done

, and put "poor whites" as the main text with "petit blanc" in parentheses since a lot of English-language sources about this period of Haitian history do use the French term. I explained the maréchaussée as armed and mounted police forces  Done

, and expanded the bit about de Villards somewhat; see what you think.  Done

I had taken the phrase "Te Deum Mass" directly from the sources, but if it's not a sensible phrase it's probably unnecessary to be specific about the nature of the mass, anyway, so I just switched to "mass".  Done

Saint-Léger is French commissaire→commissioner Edmond de Saint-Léger, mentioned in the preceding paragraph.  Done

---sche (talk) 22:47, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@-sche: Te Deum is a chant; "We praise you O God, we acclaim you as the Lord. Everlasting Father, all the world bows down before you". Usually chanted on Sundays (during reading of the Liturgy of the Hours) and upon occasion of a Solemnity. January 1 - New Year's Day - is the Solemnity of Mary the Mother of God, so important to Romaine (a feminine name, as you so rightly point out on the talk page) and of course for those who have the duty of reciting the Liturgy of the Hours. It is not, and never was, part of the Mass, which is a totally different liturgy. Rey is in error if he has stated this. --Whiteguru (talk) 04:06, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

• All matters from GA Review completed.

 

 Passed

Category relating to gender

I feel like it'd be nice to include this page in a category relating to the gender expression/identity but I have no idea what would be one that would fit Dinosar199 (talk) 23:23, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Like not sure if they would belong in a category of LGBT people of the 18th century. Y'know what I'm just gonna add it and if it's wrong, anyone feel free to change it Dinosar199 (talk) 23:29, 4 May 2022 (UTC)