Talk:Roman Catholic Diocese of Achonry

Requested move 20 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Among the arguments raised against is the benefit of consistency with the rest of the category tree. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 03:28, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

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• Roman Catholic Diocese of Achonry → Catholic Diocese of Achonry
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Ardagh and Clonmacnoise → Catholic Diocese of Ardagh and Clonmacnoise
• Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Armagh → Catholic Archdiocese of Armagh
• Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Cashel and Emly → Catholic Archdiocese of Cashel and Emly
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Clogher → Catholic Diocese of Clogher
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Clonard → Catholic Diocese of Clonard
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Clonfert → Catholic Diocese of Clonfert
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Cloyne → Catholic Diocese of Cloyne
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Connor → Catholic Diocese of Connor
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Cork and Ross → Catholic Diocese of Cork and Ross
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Derry → Catholic Diocese of Derry
• Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin → Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Elphin → Catholic Diocese of Elphin
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Ferns → Catholic Diocese of Ferns
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Galway, Kilmacduagh and Kilfenora → Catholic Diocese of Galway, Kilmacduagh and Kilfenora
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Kerry → Catholic Diocese of Kerry
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Kildare and Leighlin → Catholic Diocese of Kildare and Leighlin
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Killala → Catholic Diocese of Killala
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Killaloe → Catholic Diocese of Killaloe
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Limerick → Catholic Diocese of Limerick
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Meath → Catholic Diocese of Meath
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Ossory → Catholic Diocese of Ossory
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Raphoe → Catholic Diocese of Raphoe
• Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Tuam → Catholic Archdiocese of Tuam
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Waterford and Lismore → Catholic Diocese of Waterford and Lismore

– There is an old debate on whether to use Catholic or Roman Catholic, including a failed RfC. The lack of consensus does give flexibility, and while there is an argument then for keeping the status quo in a disputed name, I would argue that using the titles Catholic Diocese fulfils the WP:CRITERIA:

• Recognisability: I can't imagine somoeone at Catholic Diocese of Achonry would be surprised with the content proposed to be moved there.
• Naturalness: readers are reasonably likely to search for a given Catholic Diocese. If they do add in Roman Catholic, the redirects will still be there.
• Precision: This does not mean that the Church of Ireland is not a catholic church in the wider sense of the word, but I don't think there's any ambiguity using Catholic Diocese as the page title in these cases.
• Conciseness: The title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects. We don't use Catholic in its page titles for COI, e.g. Diocese of Armagh (Church of Ireland), so adding Roman isn't necessary for concisness.
• Consistency: It is consistent with titles such List of Catholic dioceses in Ireland, Catholic Church in Ireland and List of Catholic dioceses (structured view). Iveagh Gardens (talk) 10:13, 20 February 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. BD2412 T 06:04, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Note: the Cork page redirects to the Cork and Ross article already in this name request. I've altered the request to reflect this. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 15:19, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

 Disagree. Over 3,729 bishoprics in Wikipedia have their article name as “Roman Catholic (Arch)diocese of […]”.[1][2] This is to maintain consistency with the other churches in the Catholic communion such as the Greek Catholic Eparchies, Ukrainian Catholic Eparchies, etc. Note that these churches also exist in the West, such as the Ukrainian Catholic Archeparchy of Curitiba co-existing with the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Curitiba. ―Eduardogobi (talk) 00:00, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Eduardogobi thanks for your insight on this. I'd observe though that Eastern Catholics are part of the Roman Catholic Church; the Greek in their forename distinguishes their rite from Latin Rite Catholicism in most of the West, rather than from Roman, as they are also within the overall ambit of the See of Rome. However, I do agree that consistency with the other 3729 is something to bear in mind here. There is some inconsistency in the use of RCC or CC, which doesn't seem to be because of Eastern Catholicism. My own preference here is for a shorter form as long as it is generally not ambiguous, and would maintain this request to move, but if there's a view that this should be done at a global level rather than Ireland-level, I can respect this decision in seeking a consensus here. —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 18:05, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose for consistency with the rest of the tree. Also the CofI self idigied as Catholic. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

On the Church of Ireland, which I referred to, I don't think referring to a diocese as the Catholic Diocese in its title creates a significant POV issue, even as the Church of Ireland is also a Catholic church in the wider sense, at least in no more so than we have the article titled Catholic Church in Ireland. —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 18:05, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

If the extensive RC tree did not exist, then Diocese of Clogher (Church of Ireland) would probably be the model of how to disambiguate (e.g. Diocese of Clogher (Roman Catholic). Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:56, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support per WP:CONSISTENT and WP:CONCISE. Our main article was moved from Roman Catholic Church to Catholic Church over a decade ago. The "Roman" in these article titles in unnecessary and essentially vestigial. These titles should be changed to match the title of our main article on the Catholic Church. Rreagan007 (talk) 23:06, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
• Procedural Note The Catholic and Christianity projects should be notified. Nothing should be done here that was not part of a wider scheme. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:57, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
  • There are alerts at Wikipedia:WikiProject Catholicism/Article alerts#RM and Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity. On further research, I've found WP:Roman Catholic?, according to which there is a stated preference for the Roman Catholic prefix, as providing "an unambiguous convention for naming diocese where there is geographical overlap of multiple denominations". Now, I'm not sure I agree with that, as in the case of Ireland, where all nearly dioceses overlap in name with their CofI counterpart, I would still argue that it is clear even without the Roman prefix. Be that as is it may, I appreciate the need for wider discussion given the 3000+ similarly titled articles. I should add, one of the reasons I'd argue for C over RC in these discussions, is that including the Roman in the title more broadly, makes that look like the contrast with the Greek Catholic eparchies is the Roman, as opposed to the Latin Rite. So not having Roman in the title avoids this misconception. Not as relevant in Ireland, but as the discussion has become wider, I'd add that observation too. —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 15:53, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose all. The push to remove the term Roman Catholic from Wikipedia seems to come from the perception that this term is POV, and synonymous with Catholic. It is neither, and is used as a self-description by many (Roman) Catholics. But this can of worms is unlikely to ever go way, and so we are unlikely to ever get consistency on this and the test should be in each case, what term used in reliable sources? Andrewa (talk) 17:59, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Whether the terms are precisely synonymous, Wikipedia does treat them as such, at least to the extent that the two linked phrases in your own response both redirect to the same page. I don't see a POV in the addition of the prefix Roman, only a conciseness issue. I see no ambiguity in leaving it out. –Iveagh Gardens (talk) 15:56, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.