Talk:Romanian anti-communist resistance movement

For a responsible use of citation tags

Citation tags are important instruments for the development of reliable articles. Therefore, citation tags should conduce to an improvement of the text and their use should be as serious and responsible as the writing of the actual text they are refering to.

This is obviously not the case with many of the citation tags recently inserted recently and dumpy reimposed in what risks to degenerate into an edit war I am not willing to feed.

Dear Anonime, all your citation tags which I removed belong to one of following categories:

1. infos already refered by a source (example: the ENTIRE section " The resistance group" summarizes the work of Ogoranu, cited in the lead of the section) Asking for sources regarding infos which already had been related to a source is unserious
2. infos which are sourced in the very next phrase(example: "Significantly, entire families took flight in late 1948 and early 1949[citation needed]. Thus, the British consular official in Cluj, reporting... [2]" Asking for sources regarding infos which will be sourced in the very next sentence is not quite a proof of reliability.
3. infos belonging to general knowledge like the sentence "retreating in the mountains from internal of external oppressors was a spontaneous and ancestral strategy of the Romanian peasantry". Asking for sources regarding infos belonging to general knowledge is disqualifying
4. infos which are extensively treated in the very body of the article (example: forming various groups of armed resistance in what was a relatively large movement, gathering several thousands people[citation needed] ) Asking for sources for infos which are cleared further on in the article is ridiculous.

Please understand, that the article I created tries to meet the requirements of a scientific contribution, and is far away of being a pamphlet. I'am trying in all conscience to improve this work and I welcome every contribution which could help this article to become more reliable. However, your activities to this article, are, so far, not very helpful. I nevertheless look forward for a more substantial help from you to improve this work. --Vintila Barbu 17:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, these citation tags are redundant. This short article already has 35 citations. Does every factual statement require a citation? This is not in comformity with Wikipedia standards or any major citation guide with which I am familiar. The citation needed tags detract from the readability of the article and are redundant, for the reasons Vintila mentioned.Benzapp 00:12, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

It is best if they are all cited, and, if they are so obvious, it should not be difficult for anyone to do so. Until then, Anonimu has been right to add them, as the article is grossly under-referenced. Dahn 00:22, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The article has tons of citations, what are you talking about? Every sentence does not need to be cited - it is clear to anyone with any knowledge of scholarly citations to what work the original author referenced. Because YOU or Anonimu can't seem to figure out why you don't need multiple citations in the same sentence - well, that's your problem. Address Vintilas concerns point by point.Benzapp 00:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

There are plenty of unreferenced facts, and entire sentences for that matter. I do not share Anonimu's political views, as should be clear to anyone by now, and it is precisely because I do not that I want this article adequately referenced (not to mention wikified properly and have the didactic tone taken out of some sentences). Also note that this article is not written for you, me, or Anonimu, so even what may seem obvious to you or me should be referenced. (For one, let me note that, while the "ancestral tactic of the peasantry" may in itself be "widely known" [inside Romania], you still have to find a source that says this had a connection with the resistance movement, which is what I suppose Anonimu was asking for. In case you do not find one, then it is Vintila telling us that we should think about it, which is unacceptable for the neutral tone expected.) Honestly, get yourself some common sense. Dahn 00:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

You're just being pedantic. The one example you cite is the most obvious. Sheesh, have you ever heard of Robin Hood and Sherwood Forest? Peasants retreat to high mountains and dark forests. I really don't think that needs to be cited. There are countless stories from throughout Europe going back centuries about this topic. Who is lacking the common sense here? Why don't you try another point. Thanks. Benzapp 02:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure we can all without Original research. I see you have built yourself a nice straw man there, so, sheesh or no sheesh, I will not get dragged into your failure to get the point. Dahn 03:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Anonimu for your last intervention, aimed at clearing the sense of the section. Actually, what Gavrila-Ogoranu describes, is a guerilla situation, as we can read about in many works, excepting he has lived it.--Vintila Barbu 18:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Longest lasting armed movement in the former Soviet bloc ?

The article says:

The Romanian resistance was the longest lasting armed movement in the former Soviet bloc. ... The last “haiduc” was killed in the mountains of Banat in 1962.

What is the exact definition of the "armed movement" that was longest lasting in the former Soviet block ? By the simplest measure, last armed rebel killed or captured, Romania certainly does not qualify. In Lithuania, the last Forest Brother Pranas Končius was killed by Soviet forces in 1965. And in Estonia, the anti-Soviet guerilla August Sabe killed himself to avoid arrest in 1978 (!!!)

Warbola 03:20, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect to the Romanian soldiers, and commending authors on this excellent article, I'd also like to dispute the above clam (I changed DYK hook to 'one of the longest...). If the 1962 claim is for 'the oldest', I'd like to present an even older claim from the article about Polish anti-communist resistance, cursed soldiers: the last 'cursed soldier', Józef Franczak, was killed in an ambush as late as 1963. The Forest Brothers mentioned by Warbola are another even longer example, and I'd dearly love to read about the Estonian anti-Soviet guerillas...-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  04:11, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

And the last soldier of Ukrainian Insurgent Army lived in a forest till 1991 when USSR collapsed.Benda2 (talk) 15:19, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

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Jewish involvement

This is bound to be controversial, but perhaps at some point this article should also cover that there was a Jewish side to the resistance -- Max Auschnitt founded Ogoranu and the others, and there was also a Zionist underground. Im aware that they Zionists not share the ultimate goal of liberating Romania, since they were more along the lines of leaving Romania, but still, for what it was worth, they had an insurgent network that surpassed the fighting capabilities of Romanian resistance groups, and they had at least one clash with the Securitate (they were also prosecuted as enemies of the regime, and were among both the victims and the unwilling perpetrators at Pitești). Reference to them and their struggle was regularly made in Memoria magazine. It is also a fascinating case of the Iron Guard and Jewish groups fighting (more or less) side by side. Thoughts? Dahn (talk) 07:41, 18 July 2022 (UTC)