Talk:Rosemary (wrestler)

Real name

Folks I'm in touch with Courtney herself and she's asked that her name be removed from the article. She was quite upset when the folks at TNA publicized her on the Gut Check site the first time around under her real name. Any objections to my redacting it?? Tabercil (talk) 22:53, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but no. We aren't Courtney website and we aren't her users. We are Wikipedia and we have rules. A reliable source revealed her name, it's not our problem. We can't delete information because some people want it. It's like Nike says to us "ey ,I want that wikipedia delete all about human rights, because it hurts our company". No. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:22, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid that's too bad. The information is reliably sourced and archived. Unless you (Tabercil) or she can produce a relevant Wikipedia policy which would allow you to remove that piece of reliable sourced info... I'm afraid I cannot support this. Starship.paint (talk) 07:36, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd be in favour of redacting it. She's clearly unhappy with TNA publishing her real name ([1] (yes, I do know it's not a RS)) and WP:BLPPRIVACY would apply here imo, especially the "widely published" part. I think people are forgetting she's a real person and this may cause her real world problems. Some compassion is in order here. What tangible benefit do we get from including her real name in this case? Not much that I can see, and I'd personally rather ensure a real person has privacy and respect rather than we have the most complete article possible.

@HHH, nobody's saying we're her personal website – if we were, her real name wouldn't be listed so that's a moot point anyway. Your point regarding Nike is also irreleveant. Nike is a company, not a living person, and the human rights abuses allegatiosn have or should have multiple RS and have been widely published.

@Tabercil, you might advise her to try WP:OTRS if you have no joy here. Nigel McGuinness was able to have his real name redacted for a long time, as it wasn't widely known, via OTRS (see Talk:Nigel McGuinness/Archive 1). NiciVampireHeart 09:36, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I still thinking that it's a bad idea. Nike is a company, but the same case. We have a RS about her name, it's not our fault. As I said, in Spanish Wikipedia a lot of Mexican luchadores said to us that we have to delete their real names. One time, El Hijo del Santo lawer said us that revealing his name is against the Constitution... but we don't "reveal" things. We have sources, we put it. This problem is between her and TNA, we are neutral. For example, tomorrow Mitt Romney say to us "I want that you delete the 47% Comment, because it hurts my image and I don't want to read it". If we have a RS like TNA, I don't think that we have to delete. In that case, we can be touched by anybody to write the articles how they want. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:38, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with all your points. What we include in articles here is our fault. The Spanish wikipedia is utterly irrelevant to this discussion. Both the Nike and Mitt Romney things is utterly irrelevant as well. We're discussing a person's real name, not a quote from a person verified by a video and reported in multiple reliable sources.

I shall point you again to WP:BLPPRIVACY, and provide a quote for you here: "Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object." Emphasis mine.

Now, having read that, tell me how including Rush's full name, when it is provided by one source and she clearly and obviously objects to it, falls within this policy. I'll give you a clue: it doesn't. NiciVampireHeart 13:38, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with you in all your points. I had called a couple of time and I think that my examples are valids. As I said, El Hijo del Santo's lawer tell me how I have to write his article. The answer: "people can't tell you how you have to write their own articles, they have interest". One of the first thing in Wikipedia it's that we have to be neutral. We have source(s), we put it. We haven't sources, we don't put it. I think that this is Wikipedia:Conflict of interest: "An article about a band should not be written by the band's manager, and a biography should not be written by the subject's spouse. But subject-matter experts are welcome to contribute to articles in their areas of expertise, while being careful to make sure that their external relationships in that field do not interfere with their primary role on Wikipedia." We have a RS, TNA, like when WWE suspended Sin Cara and revealed his real name. Again, isn't our fault, we need sources. If she has a problem, she needs to talk with TNA. Until them, her name still in the Internet and the RS still existing. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 16:59, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Since you failed to answer my question above, I shall again point you to WP:BLPPRIVACY: "Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object." Emphasis is mine.

I'd put the emphasis on and dates of birth that. The rest of the paragraph seems concerned more about the birthdate, for identity theft reasons, not the name alone. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:19, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Now, please tell me how does including Rush's full name, when it is provided by one source (one cite is not widely published and note the plural in the quote) and she clearly and obviously objects to it, fall within this policy? NiciVampireHeart 17:10, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I saw the plural. Again. Wikipedia:Conflict of interest: "An article about a band should not be written by the band's manager, and a biography should not be written by the subject's spouse. But subject-matter experts are welcome to contribute to articles in their areas of expertise, while being careful to make sure that their external relationships in that field do not interfere with their primary role on Wikipedia." I still thinking that a RS from TNA, the second company in USA (and now, wrestlingdata and Cagematch), an Official Promotion Website And please, watch your tongue. I work really hard in Wikipedia and I think that you are mocking me. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 17:28, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Has Ms. "Rush" indicated why she objects? Doesn't seem a problem to me. With luchadors, it's more understandable, since they're masked and have mysterious personas. But not her. I could also understand if we were publishing her home address or financial info. But where's the harm in naming a public figure? Don't think it's enough that she objects, if she can't show how it would hurt. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:09, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

NiciVampireHeart has shown a relevant policy to this discussion, and I am leaning between yes and no at this point, and as per Hulk, if she (through Tabercil?) could give a reason, I might very well be persuaded to lean to remove it. Starship.paint (talk) 00:15, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I was in touch with Courtney via Facebook back when I recreated the article - back then I asked her to clear up a point about what her real name is. She said "put Courtney Rush as my real name. I have my FB account with my shoot name set on private and I don't particularly want anybody in wrestling looking it up." That's to folks within her business - clearly she's not wanting it to be present for those outside of the wrestling community. I've also seen from other female wrestlers comments about creeps and stalkers - one female wrestler I'm friends with (Leah von Dutch, who I'm itching to put together an article for) even has a "creep of the week" bit which she posts to Twitter. Tabercil (talk) 12:44, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I undertsand her, but it stills hard to me. She is telling us that we have to write and information that we know that is fake and we have sources to prove it. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 17:12, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

If her real name Facebook profile is private, why would it matter who looks it up? I used to have a Facebook page. If a non-friend searched for me, they'd see my name and hometown. If they wanted to "creep" or "stalk" me further, they needed to friend me. Isn't that the way for everyone? InedibleHulk (talk) 19:22, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

From Courtney just now via Facebook: "For five years as an active professional wrestler, I have taken pains to keep my name and personal information separate from my stage persona. I value my private life to remain just that, and have never even given my name for newspaper interviews - only ever my stage name. It was through the actions of a company (TNA Gutcheck) that required my personal information for legal documentation, and then illegally and entirely without my permission did publish that information on the internet. They have since removed it, at my insistence, but the damage was done as my private information had already been shared on Wikipedia, also very much WITHOUT my permission and against my wishes. For legal and personal safety reasons, I wish to have my real name (***) and town (***) removed from Wikipedia's records and kept from reappearing." (Note: I've redacted her name & address from the post). It's true what she says about interviews - if you look at the interview she did with Canoe (http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2011/07/04/18374206.html) there's no mention of her real name which is not the usual pattern for Canoe. Tabercil (talk) 22:47, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Wait. She's trying to stay private, but specified her real name and address on Facebook, instead of just saying "real name and address"? That doesn't seem like trying to me. Or is this a private message you're sharing? InedibleHulk (talk) 04:10, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Yup, private message. Tabercil (talk) 11:37, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

So relaying a name given to the world by a major promotion is bad by BLP, but pasting someone's private messages on Wikipedia is OK? InedibleHulk (talk) 19:05, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

That message which I put up was written by her explicitly for the purpose of being posted here, and is in response to Starship.paint's request for further comment from her. Tabercil (talk) 07:49, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

That seems fine, then. Still, this is basic biography stuff. If we're to have an article, we can't knowingly deceive readers, by omission or outright lying. For what it's worth, I can't even find her name on Facebook, at least through Google (aside from some fan groups who mention her). Seems private enough, as far as that goes. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:31, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Very well, I support the removal of the name and town. Starship.paint (talk) 00:11, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I still don't. When she agreed to become an internationally televised wrestler, she became a public figure. If we're going to have an entry for her, we're expected to provide at least basic biographical info, per WP:OPENPARA. The "Privacy of names" relates to bit players (like a victim of a disaster or relative of a subject). It's not for article subjects themselves. In the NCW section, we have "Rush (as PJ Tyler)". How does a character play a character? This is a real encyclopedia, not a kayfabe companion guide. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:05, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I understand her wishes, but I think like Hulk. It isn't our fault that TNA exposed her real name and town, we only use the sources. I understand that she wants to separate personal life from work, but the sources are in the Internet and she has an article, so we assume that she is notable. We can delete her town and real name, but it doesn't change that in some pages, like IWDB, TNA... people can see her real name. I think like Hulk. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:22, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps, but Wikipedia is fast becoming (if not already) one of the central-most sources for information on the net, where a lot of people start their search for information on a topic. Just because it's out there doesn't mean it needs to be here. Tabercil (talk) 20:04, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

That's exactly it. People come to this article looking for information on this wrestler, especially basic stuff like names. If we give them the wrong information (either say her real name is Courtney Rush or pretend it's a mystery), we're failing as an encyclopedia. We don't need to include every detail the Internet has on her, but the Manual of Style for biographies is pretty clear that a name should be here, in bold and up front. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:52, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I have reasonable confirmation that Ms. Rush is in fact making this request. Per WP:BLPPRIVACY, both full names and dates of birth can be considered private. One source does not "widely published" make. Please do not re-add her full (non-stage) name unless the publication status changes. LFaraone 18:29, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Real name discussion

I wasn't here for this initial discussion three years ago, but the article includes her real name in her film credits, so I'm wondering why we aren't including her real name in the lead section as well? Not only are there plenty of third party sources for her film credits, but she also clearly isn't hiding her identity on social media, as she uses her public personal Facebook page to talk in-depth about her career as Courtney Rush/Rosemary. Her career with Impact Wrestling is also the only public biographical information on the page. ProfightDB and Gerweck also list her real name and we use both sites as reliable sources for real names on other articles. Is it time to add the name or what? Feedback 13:54, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, as far I remember, Rush gave her personal data to TNA for Gutcheck purposes. However, TNA revealed her name... right now, I think the situation changed. Rush is under TNA contract and performs on national level. I think we should include her real name. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:24, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

I disagree... At this point I've not seen anything which is clear that she has chosen to put her real name out there. Tabercil (talk) 04:25, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Her Facebook is under her real name and she (1) has her career in her about section, (2) talks about her career in-depth with her posts, (3) keeps promoting posters of events she's working, and (4) despite having other information marked as private for only friends of friends, all of the above is for public view. Add to that her numerous credits under her real name in independent films, and I think it's clear that she has put "her real name is out there" (whether she regrets it or not is another matter entirely and outside the scope). Feedback 16:32, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

In the previous discussion, the final words were "One source does not "widely published" make. Please do not re-add her full (non-stage) name unless the publication status changes." I think the publication status changed. it's not just TNA. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 17:04, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Courtney Rush

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Courtney Rush's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "SlamBFG07":

• From TNA Knockouts Championship: Sokol, Chris (2007-10-14). "Angle gets stung at Bound For Glory". SLAM! Sports: Wrestling. Canadian Online Explorer. Retrieved 2009-09-21.
• From Gail Kim: Sokol, Chris (2007-10-15). "Angle gets stung at Bound For Glory". SLAM! Sports: Wrestling. Canadian Online Explorer. Retrieved 2010-09-03.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 12:50, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

New Picture

Would it be possible to get a new image of Rosemary since her appearance has changed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.15.20.234 (talk) 23:42, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm looking to find out if I can use a promotional image, but in the meantime this is the best I can do. I'll add it if no one has any objections, but it's not ideal.

Rosemary at a Rise Wrestling event.

Sephiroth storm (talk) 02:31, 10 December 2018 (UTC)