Talk:Rozafa Castle

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

copyright violation?

I was looking for a reference to the German author named in this article, Johan Georgvan Han (strange name, there must be a missing space or a typo), and found this article on the internet with exactly the same text: http://www.geocities.com/spiritofalbania/legendofrozafa. I don't know which one was first (in wikipedia, the text was added on 30 december 2005), but this might be copyright violation. The text is way too flowery anyway, it might be better to replace it with something more encyclopedic. Markussep ^Talk 12:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

author_valentino rossi ose v.xh —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.242.20.194 (talk) 12:41, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Serbian legend??

Another piece of Albanian history turned into Serbian by a waving of the magic wand. Just ridiculous!!! Etimo (talk) 08:48, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

The Serbian legend was recorded earlier, and has more references. Critikal1 (talk) 21:17, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Recorded earlier?? Says who?? And what does that prove?? Does a legend belong to a people because they wrote first about it? So let's ignore historical and ethnical context, is that the logic?? This Albanian legend is linked to Albanian history and ethnos (apart the castle being built in Illyrian times, where Slavs were God knows where), and has absolutely no historical context and link to Slavic folklore (just like the Slavic appropriation of the Albanian epos of highlander warriors linked to Slavic invasions which, again, has no historical link with Slavs). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Etimo (talk • contribs) 13:56, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Të lumtë Etimo!

BRD and massive changes

Editor Iaof2017 boldy performed massive changes of the article (diff). I reverted them (diff) and instead to respect wikipedia policies and WP:BRD and discuss the changes on the talkpage this editor opted for edit war (diff). Taking in consideration:

• this comment of their (diff) and
• their replacement of English language common name of river Bojana with Albanian language name Buna,
• removal of list of entities who controlled this castle in history,
• addition of poorly referenced information that legend about the Building of Skadar belongs to Albanian folklore

I am afraid this bold edits are not improvement of wikipedia article and I will revert them. If there are valid arguments which can be used to support above mentioned bold additions, it is necessary to bring them here and gain consensus for them. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:15, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Flag of Serbia (1281).svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:10, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

9th Century BC?

Castles were invented in the 5th century AD. So how was this built 1,500 years before that? 79.106.203.26 (talk) 11:21, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

"Illyrian stronghold"

By judging the available sources, I have issues to connect this (Venetian) castle with the earlier Illyrian stronghold on the same hill. What are the reasons to argue that the Venetians further expanded and built the "Illyrian stronghold" into the castle it is today? Aleksandarstankov (talk) 23:31, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Aleksandarstankov don't push POV and remove sourced content. You have made 3 reverts. – Βατο (talk) 07:04, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Βατο I would very much appreciate if you could list reasons as to why you undo my edits, and be more specific than "Don't push POV". Because right now you're the only pushing your own perspective by attempting to portray this monument as "Illyrian" and adding content without sources.

Next time, contribute to the Talkpage a bit more effectively. Aleksandarstankov (talk) 13:59, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Currently, I'm the only one aiming for consensus. If you don't wish this monument to be described as "Venetian castle" for whatever reason you got - then sure. But it should at least be explained that the fortification that currently exist are of Venetian origins on the intro. Aleksandarstankov (talk) 14:09, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

You reached the fourth revert, you could be blocked for that, read WP:3RR carefully. My comment was mainly in regards to the legend, you removed well sourced content. As for the date of the earliest detected walls in current scholarship, it is 4th or early 3rd centruy BC, I added a recent source about it. Old 19th century sources should not be used as per WP:AGEMATTERS. Cheers. – Βατο (talk) 14:37, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

I did not remove the legend - I relocated the paragraph. The Albanian legend is fully based on the more documented and famous Serbian epic poem. Furthermore, the Serbian epic poem is written as a "version of the Albanian legend" which is very misleading. As for the date of construction, I put a citation that a source was needed for the time it was built, you went on to remove the citation and add a new time period without a source. You should have added a source from the beginning as you did now. Aleksandarstankov (talk) 14:46, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

The Albanian legend is fully based on the more documented and famous Serbian epic poem. The sources in the article does not say so. Your opinion is of no value to the article. Do not modify sourced content as you did. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:06, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, just because some Serbs decided to write our legend down, does not make it theirs. Just because it's documented, which means someone decided to write it down, does not by any reasonable grounds imply its historical origins. All the "documentation" is after the 16th century. 142.126.226.147 (talk) 01:19, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, just because some Serbs decided to write our legend down, does not make it theirs. Just because it's documented, which means someone decided to write it down, does not by any reasonable grounds imply its historical origins. Especially 19th century "documentation" is void of any value as regards historical origin. 142.126.226.147 (talk) 01:22, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Name Origin

There's no historical consensus about the name origin. Marin Barleti gives a different etymology. I suggest including all the available interpretations of the name, including Barleti's. 142.126.226.147 (talk) 01:17, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

St. Stephen's Cathedral

What evidence is there that St. Stephen's Cathedral was of Venetian origin? I don't doubt that the Venetians build the current edifice (later turned into a Mosque), but it's very likely there was a church there before the Venetians. 142.126.226.147 (talk) 01:24, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Resafa?

The passage is complete speculation and should be omitted. Is that even a serious theory? What should be referenced is Marlin Barleti's claims in The Siege of Shkoder that links the name of Rosa Fa. 142.114.118.180 (talk) 03:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Illyrian fortification

There are two recent sources that support the information that the first detected walls of the castle on the same hill are dated to the 4th-3rd century BCE, attributed to Illyrians:

• Galaty & Bejko 2023, p. 60: "Recently, excavations were reopened at Shkodër Castle by Shpuza, working in collaboration with Polish archaeologist Piotr Dyczek (recently summarized in Dyczek and Shpuza 2020). They began in 2011 with mapping, reconnaissance, and a survey of the inscriptions in the Venetian cistern (Shpuza and Dyczek 2012). They also excavated additional segments of the Iower town's fortification wall—originally excavated by Hoxha and Lahi (see above; apparently built in 340 AD, Dyczek and Shpuza 2014:393)—a round tower, an ossuary, and an Ottoman road and cemetery (fourteenth to fifteenth century AD) near the Xhamia e Plumbit (the Lead Mosque) (Dyczek and Shpuza 2014:393). Finds recovered from various test excavations date to the period of Gentius and demonstrate the presence of a vibrant, growing, pre- Roman (i.e., Illyrian) city (Shpuza and Dyczek 2012:444-445). In subsequent years, Dyczek and Shpuza (2014; see also Shpuza and Dyczek 2013, 2018) excavated 1 7 test trenches covering 400 sq. m., both inside and outside the fortress. Pottery and walls from the Hellenistic period (third to first century BC) were discovered both inside and outside the city walls, providing further support for the idea that the Illyrian city encompassed a Wide area, both atop the citadel and near the banks of the Drin and Buna rivers" [...] p. 65: "For example, despite identifying eighteen Illyrian settlements in the Shkodër region, and despite conducting large-scale excavations at six ot them, including massive, recent excavations at Shkodër Castle, we still possess only the foggiest of impressoins regarding how the regional Illyrian tribes formed and were organized."
• Dyczek 2022: "A section of the original so-called Cyclopean walls has been traced and dated to the 4th (?) or early 3rd century BC (Figure 5). There is also some modest evidence of the Lower City walls seen by Livy. Considered in relation to the results of the excavations, this gives a provisional picture of the Hellenistic fortifications, as well as an improved understanding of the urban grid. The small finds: fragments of amphorae and amphora stoppers, and sherds of table ware come mainly from the 2nd century BC (Figure 6). Extensive geophysical (Figure 7) and archaeological research in the upcoming seasons of fieldwork will be instrumental in planning the gradual uncovering of the Hellenistic history of the town."

User:AzorzaI should explain why they are removing that well sourced information. – Βατο (talk) 19:42, 16 July 2024 (UTC)