Talk:RuPaul's Drag Race season 2

Notes for lightblue and pink

I'm just gonna use this as a section for notes on each episode. This starts after Ru brings the queens back after judge deliberations. Lists in order the queens and their status.

Episode 1

Nicole, Sonique, Jessica, Jujubee, Raven, Tatianna are announced safe. Tyra, Morgan, and Pandora positively critiqued. Morgan wins. Mystique negatively critiqued but safe. Shangela and Sahara bottom two. Oath2order (talk) 03:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Episode 2

Sahara's team announced as the winning team, with Sahara as the winner. Morgan is safe. Raven and Nicole bottom two. Sonique, Tatianna and Pandora are negatively critiqued. Oath2order (talk) 03:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Episode 3

Jujubee, Tatianna, Sahara, Morgan, and Sonique announced as safe. Jessica positively critiqued. Pandora positively critiqued. Tyra wins. Raven and Mystique bottom 2. Oath2order (talk) 03:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Episode 4

Tyra, Raven, Jessica, Sahara all safe. Tatianna positively critiqued. Jujubee positively critiqued. Tatianna declared winner. Morgan got negatives, Sonique got negatives, Jujubee got negatives. Morgan and Sonique declared bottom two. Oath2order (talk) 03:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Episode 5

Tyra declared the winner. Tatianna is safe. Pandora is safe. Jujubee, Jessica, and Raven are positively critiqued. Sahara and Morgan are bottom two. Oath2order (talk) 03:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Episode 6

Jessica, Pandora, and Raven are positively critiqued. Sahara and Jujubee are negatively critiqued. Jessica called winner, Jujubee and Sahara are bottom two, leaving Tyra as a low safe. Oath2order (talk) 03:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Episode 7

Tyra got positive critiques. Pandora was safe. Raven called winner. Jessica very negatively critiqued. Tatianna negatively critiqued. Oath2order (talk) 03:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Episode 8

Raven wins. Tyra and Tatianna declared safe. Pandora and Jujubee both bottom two. Oath2order (talk) 03:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Episode 9

Tyra wins. Jujubee negatively critiqued. Raven is safe. Tatianna is bottom two, Jujubee is bottom two. Oath2order (talk) 03:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Final table

Contestant	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11
Tyra Sanchez	HIGH	HIGH	WIN	SAFE	WIN	LOW	HIGH	SAFE	WIN	Winner	Guest
Raven	SAFE	BTM2	BTM2	SAFE	HIGH	HIGH	WIN	WIN	SAFE	Runner-Up	Guest
Jujubee	SAFE	HIGH	SAFE	LOW	HIGH	BTM2	SAFE	BTM2	BTM2	Eliminated	Guest
Tatianna	SAFE	LOW	SAFE	WIN	SAFE	SAFE	BTM2	SAFE	ELIM		Guest
Pandora Boxx	HIGH	LOW	HIGH	HIGH	SAFE	HIGH	SAFE	ELIM			Miss C
Jessica Wild	SAFE	HIGH	HIGH	SAFE	HIGH	WIN	ELIM				Guest
Sahara Davenport	BTM2	WIN	SAFE	SAFE	BTM2	ELIM					Guest
Morgan McMichaels	WIN	SAFE	SAFE	BTM2	ELIM						Guest
Sonique	SAFE	LOW	SAFE	ELIM							Guest
Mystique Summers Madison	LOW	HIGH	ELIM								Guest
Nicole Paige Brooks	SAFE	ELIM									Guest
Shangela Laquifa Wadley	ELIM										Guest

  The contestant won RuPaul's Drag Race.

  The contestant was the runner-up of RuPaul's Drag Race.

  The contestant was eliminated in third place without lip-syncing.

  The contestant was voted Miss Congeniality by viewers.

  The contestant won a challenge.

  The contestant received positive critiques but was ultimately declared as "safe".

  The contestant received negative critiques but was ultimately declared as "safe".

  The contestant was in the bottom two.

  The contestant was eliminated.

  The contestant returned as a guest for the finale episode.

Sonique/Deadname

Since the person who is trying to own this article was too lazy to do so, here is a section for discussing the use of Sonique's deadname.

Fact is, it is insensitive to trans people--and, indeed, flat-out wrong, as a person buy the name of Jason no longer legally exists--to use their former name after they have changed it. Therefore, I have removed it. 24.138.76.242 (talk) 19:55, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Per MOS:GENDERID:

Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources. When a person's gender self-designation may come as a surprise to readers, explain it without overemphasis on first occurrence in an article. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Avoid confusing constructions (Jane Doe fathered a child) by rewriting (e.g., Jane Doe became a parent). Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and "[sic]" may be used where necessary). The MoS does not specify when and how to present former names, or whether to use the former or present name first.

Okay? Good. 24.138.76.242 (talk) 20:00, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_121#MOS:IDENTITY_clarification for clarification. For specific events which occured before transition, use the name in use at the time. Using Jason as the name for the contestants on the show is no more inappropriate than using a maiden name for a Miss America contestant who became notable after marrying and changing their name.Naraht (talk) 20:45, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Or more clearly, in an article about Athletics at the 1976 Summer Olympics having the Gold Medalist in the Decathalon being Bruce Jenner.Naraht (talk) 22:45, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

The Village Pump discussion is over three years old, and is therefore significantly behind the times as far as how trans people prefer to be identified goes. And I note that you quite carefully failed to mention that DrMies very clearly said that the discussion was about that article only. Dismissed for those reasons. There is no good reason not to list Sonique's correct legal name, which is Kylie. The MOS argues for it, as quoted above. Your continued insistence that we must use someone's deadname reeks of not knowing a dang thing about trans people, and not caring how they feel, in favour of what you have decided is correct.

And someone getting married and taking their spouse's name is extremely different than a trans person changing their legal name--again, you clearly know nothing about trans people.

MOS is in favour of using the current identifiable name, the VP discussion was closed explicitly as sui generis and is over three years old besides. There is no good reason not to use her current legal name, with a footnote indicating that she had competed under another name, if you must. 24.138.76.242 (talk) 00:10, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

You're quoting for individual biographical articles, MOS:GENDERID also states that articles where the person is mention it clearly states to Use context to determine which name or names to provide on a case-by-case basis. The context is that was her name at the time of filming and every article states names and ages are correct at the time of filming. Her new legal name is listed as a note saying she changed it to reflect her gender transition, there's nothing wrong with how it is. Thanks. Brocicle (talk) 02:03, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I have explained exactly what is wrong with how it is. You simply do not know a damn thing about trans people, and your smug little nonsense won't fly. There is NO REASON AT ALL why wikipedia MUST use a trans woman's former name. You just think it's, oh, just a name, no different than a woman changing hers on her wedding day.

It. Is. Not. You do not know what you are talking about. When one is looking at context, part of that context is 'How does this person prefer to be addressed?' Articles on Cher don't force use of her legal name. Articles on Bob Dylan, etc etc etc. Yet somehow for some reason trans people must be treated differently? Fuck that noise. 24.138.76.242 (talk) 03:17, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a SJW site. Cher and Bob Dylan fall under WP:COMMONNAME and they are STAND ALONE articles, not a season article mentioning a contestant. As previously stated MOS:GENDERID specifically says to use contexts on pages where the person in question is mentioned. She competed prior to her transition, same when Caitlyn Jenner competed in the Olympics. Thanks. Brocicle (talk) 04:30, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Ah, at least you're finally being honest. This isn't, at all, about WP policies--this is about you refusing to be decent to another human because you think it's a 'sjw' thing. Grow up. 24.138.76.242 (talk) 22:41, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Please remain civil in your discussion and remember not to attack other editors simply because they don't always agree with you. I understand it's a sensitive topic but do not attack other editors for their views as you have done multiple times (on other talk pages too) and stay on topic. Thanks. 02:50, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Nah. It's instructive that you didn't deny it. This has nothing to do with WP policy and everything to do with you refusing to understand a simple concept. 24.138.76.242 (talk) 21:39, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

As the source you have restored points out, she actually begin her transition previous to the taping and came out at the reunion episode. The sources also discuss her as Kylie. To avoid WP:UNDUE weight on her prior name, I will restore it as Kylie. Per WP:ONUS, we should reach consensus here before adding sensitive WP:BLP material like a former name. Innisfree987 (talk) 05:05, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

We're not talking about her transition, it's about the legal name she used to compete under during that time. Discussion has not reached consensus nor is it finished so please refrain from making changes until it has concluded or consensus has been reached. Brocicle (talk) 05:10, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Also, her former name has been used on the article for years prior to and after her name change so nothing is being added in place of her now legal name. It's the name she competed under, and her new legal name is stated as it was not changed until 5 years after her competing. No one is disputing her trans status. Brocicle (talk) 05:17, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Please see the above referenced policies about whether to include contested material without consensus.

As for the material itself, it seems to me that a single mention that uses anything other than her rightful name puts undue weight on her former name and her transition. If her standalone page were reexpanded, it would appropriately include discussion of her transition since it's been covered in sources. Here though, there's only the one mention, so it seems appropriate to me that it should refer to the person per the self-designation guidance in MOS:GENDERID. I considered whether we might include a footnote saying she was credited under a different name at the time, but since that's not how the cited sources discussed the matter, even that did not seem justified. Innisfree987 (talk) 05:48, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Her previous name was used prior to being contested so that's how it should remain until consensus is reached but okay. That article was written 5 years after she competed. All progress tables on the Drag Race articles state that names and ages are correct at the time of the contest and she has a note stating her name was legally changed to reflect her transition. It's not like her name isn't being included at all. MOS:GENDERID also states to use context when mentioning a person in another article that isn't a standalone biographical article for said person. Context is that was her legal name at the time of filming. As @Naraht: pointed out this discussion Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_121#MOS:IDENTITY_clarification which concluded to use the name at the time of the specific events. Even if the discussion is 3 years old it it still relevant and useable. Brocicle (talk) 05:58, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

• (Here from WP LGBT.) I'm in strong support of the name Kylie Love (or Kylie Sonique Love) being used in the "Name" cell. Because that's her name, both legal and in the more meaningful sense of actual usage. We don't name the column heading "Outdated former names". Let's take this back to first principles and decide which makes more sense. If we include the person's drag name and the name they use on a day-to-day basis, then that helps readers to identify the contestants and research more about them. It tells you who the person themselves is, and gives you their drag name. If we include the person's drag name and their outdated name at the time (where this differs from their current name), then you're not actually giving the missing information: what name the person uses outside of drag contexts. I've never seen RuPaul's Drag Race but I assume it uses the names under "Contestants" to refer to the candidates throughout the process, and their non-drag names are rarely if ever referred to. If so, a note containing Sonique's former name is not useful and violates WP:DEADNAME. If, however, the name "Jason Edwards" was used so frequently on the show that it has an equal (or greater) claim than "Sonique" to being the name the contestant was known under, then a note mentioning that this was her legal name at the time would be appropriate. Also: the "and names" should be removed from the note (Ages and names stated are at time of contest) for consistency. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 15:59, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

It does not necessarily violate WP:DEADNAME as this is not a stand alone article for Sonique and it clearly states "If a person is named in an article in which they are not the subject, they should be referred to by the name they were using at the time of the mention rather than a name they may have used before or after the mention." Brocicle (talk) 22:22, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, and it then clearly follows up with "However, see MOS:IDENTITY" which says "Use context to determine which name or names to provide on a case-by-case basis" under a specific section about gender identity. That take us to my commentary above about going back to first principles and identifying what the column is useful for, and I show you the chain of logic that led me to the conclusion to use "Kylie Sonique Love". We're not discussing Sonique's past actions in the table, simply listing her real name alongside a drag name. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 23:02, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Equal to 1976 Olympics?

In trying to determine if this situation is equal to that of another article, please indicate if the situation in this article should be dealt with the same as that for the winner of the Decathelon in the 1976 Olympics in the article Athletics at the 1976 Summer Olympics and if not, why not.Naraht (talk) 12:07, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

• Yes. Legal name at the time and the name used to compete under. Brocicle (talk) 12:48, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
• WP:OSE. I can't see a discussion about the way Jenner is referred to on the talk page there, so there's no consensus for it. In fact the current situation is clearly undesirable from any standpoint; even if we took as granted that "Bruce Jenner" had to be written in the name cell, there would obviously still need to be a note saying "This person's actual name is Caitlyn Jenner". Rather, it makes sense to garner consensus here about Sonique and then apply the rationale behind the result to that decathlon page. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 15:59, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

• note: @Bilorv: There was a discussion here regarding how Jenner should be referred to. Brocicle (talk) 22:19, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

• Ah, I see. You are correct; though I still believe that it shouldn't be consensus, it nevertheless is. However, the scope of the discussion is limited to Caitlyn Jenner, and the closer explicitly points out that the sports-related context is key. Here, that does not apply. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 23:02, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

• That is true, perhaps a RFC should be opened or another discussion at VPP for further input so this can be avoided being debated over in the future. Brocicle (talk) 02:50, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

• There's another option... stop insisting with smug cis privilege that WP must use a trans woman's deadname, when there is LITERALLY NOTHING ANYWHERE IN POLICY THAT SAYS SO AND QUITE A LOT THAT SAYS THE EXACT OPPOSITE. That's what makes it abundantly clear that this isn't about WP policy at all. 24.138.76.242 (talk) 21:41, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Please stop assuming how other editors identify and remain civil. Thanks. Brocicle (talk) 01:12, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Again, nah. I'm going on the information from your page. And, again, it is deeply instructive that you don't actually deny that this has nothing at all to do with WP policy. 24.138.76.242 (talk) 13:48, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

• I would welcome an RfC on the topic. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 22:48, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

• I will open an RFC shortly. More experience, knowledge, and other opinions will surely help with the discussion. Brocicle (talk) 01:12, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

• No, this is not an equivalent situation to the matter of whether the 1976 Olympics article refers to Kris Kardashian's former spouse as Bruce or Caitlyn. Competitors on Drag Race are not billed under their own legal names — while there have admittedly been a couple of queens (Charlie Hides, Chad Michaels, etc.) who used their real names as their drag names, contestants on Drag Race are consistently billed by their drag names. Even when they're giving talking head in "boy" mode, they're still billed as their drag names. Not one single solitary time in the entire run of Drag Race S2 did you ever see Sonique's real legal name on screen (not even in the closing credits) — and while I can't absolutely swear to whether it was ever mentioned in dialogue or not (I'd have to binge-rewatch the entire season to be 100 per cent sure), even if it did get mentioned that would have been in passing at best.
  The question of what her legal name was at the time the competition was being filmed is irrelevant, because her legal name was never how she was presented to the viewing audience. The legal names of Drag Race queens are approaching WP:TRIVIA: they're not placed front and centre on the air by the show at all and are not central to the queens' public personas, and while their media coverage may or may not occasionally mention their legal names, even it certainly doesn't centre their legal names either. So no, it's not an equivalent situation to the rule that we need to apply a contextual filter to the matter of whether any given article refers to Bruce or Caitlyn Jenner — the queens' real legal names aren't relevant to their notability in anything even remotely like the same way that Caitlyn Jenner's former name is relevant to hers. The name Sonique competed under, in the sense that's relevant to the "Bruce Jenner rule", is Sonique, so that rule is irrelevant to the question of which "real name" this article should provide. Bearcat (talk) 16:08, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Lucky for you, I did binge everything within the past couple of weeks. As far as I can remember, the only time legal names are ever used in the show is a) if they show audition tape clips, b) when Ru does her feasting on the tears of the contestants to stay young showing pictures of the contestants as kids. And in the latter case, it's only ever first names, and it's only ever top 4. As far as I can recall, Sonique's birth name is never mentioned. Good luck getting the transphobe to listen, though. 24.138.76.242 (talk) 22:37, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
    • To be fair, there have also been a few instances of queens mentioning their own real names in conversation with the other queens — e.g. Bianca del Rio referred to herself as Roy a couple of times, though I'm quite sure she still never said "Haylock" on the air. But that's the exception to the rule, and otherwise you're right. Bearcat (talk) 20:36, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

RfC

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Should this and other articles that may face the same discussion not include the former legal name of a contestant/s who presented and competed as male at the time of the competition and has since transitioned to female and legally changed their name to reflect their transition. Please see the discussion above for some more information. Brocicle (talk) 01:27, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

• oh, how surprising, you wrote this in such a way as to appear reasonable while still pushing your transphobic agenda. At no point has anyone intelligent suggested removing her former name entirely. It is reasonable to put, as a footnoted comment, that she was previously known as Jason. What is not acceptable and people have literally been telling you this for months is forcing the use of a trans woman's deadname as though it were a) her legal name, and b) relevant, and c) not transphobic as all hell. 24.138.76.242 (talk) 13:50, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
• Use the current name of all Drag Race contestants: As Bearcat points out above, the legal names of contestants are very rarely mentioned on the show, so this isn't a matter of omitting information that is important to understanding the show. This is a matter of allowing people to find out more information about the contestants, and for that we need two names: their drag name; and their current name. I should clarify that current name should be what the person wishes to be called, not their legal name, for the same reason that we refer to Muhammad Ali rather than Cassius Clay (a legal name he never changed)—it's both common courtesy and correct to use the name they go by. This is particularly important in the case of transgender contestants, who generally have very strong objections to using their wrong-gendered name. For those who aren't particularly familiar with trans issues, the analogy of gay people is relevant here: we wouldn't call a gay person "formerly straight" when talking about their life before coming out, because they have always been gay; here, we shouldn't be using a male name to describe a person who has always been female, or vice versa. Finally, the most relevant policy is MOS:GENDERID: "Use context to determine which name or names to provide on a case-by-case basis." Well, contextually it makes sense to describe a person, in table columns where it says "Name", by... their name. Not some former legal name. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 17:15, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
• I think that in most cases, a trans person's current, preferred name should take precedence over any former names. However, in Drag Race contestant tables, we deal with the very specific case of names presented in conjunction with ages. The 26-year-old performer known as Sonique was a woman, but at that age, her name was Jason. This means that a table row indicating the performer was both 26 years old and also named Kylie presents a logical contradiction; those two things were not true concurrently. I am personally a fan of the way this is handled at RuPaul's Drag Race (season 6)#Contestants, where Gia's legal name at age 23 is immediately followed by a footnote indicating that her current name is different. I think this is what we should do with Kylie's name here. Armadillopteryx^talk 22:39, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
• At present I decline to comment on other entries. In this entry, where the person's name is mentioned only once, it seems appropriate for a variety of reasons to use the person's most-recent name--including basic decency reasons and because it is the identifier most helpful to readers in finding that person in other contexts. As for the issue with the chart, it's easily resolved by revising the preceding note to indicate it's just the ages that listed as they were at the time of competition. I have done that for now in the interests of making sure readers are not misled pending the outcome of this RfC, but of course it should be adjusted depending on that outcome. Innisfree987 (talk) 21:28, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
• Use name at time of contest with an end note that acknowledges her name change to reflect her transition since being on the show: This is how the information was presented prior to this discussion and RfC being opened and how the information is presented currently for other transgender contestants who came out either during or after the show, except for three contestants due to no reliable sources found/added for their now preferred/legal names and Peppermint.

In regard to MOS:GENDERID it is clear that it can be interpreted differently as it itself is not ironclad in wording and is very broad and open to interpretation (different discussion for a different day). In the section referring to the person in other articles it states to use context to determine which name should be presented. The context is during the filming in 2009, Sonique presented and competed as male and under her previous name, Jason Edwards. And this is a television season article and not an article about Sonique only. It should be noted that Sonique did not present or live as female in Atlanta where it is listed she is from during the competition but did so once moving to Los Angeles after the competition as stated in this article [1]

There is a previous discussion at Village Pump in relation to how Caitlyn Jenner's previous Olympic wins should be presented since her transition. While it is noted by the closing editor that the discussion does not set precedent, they make some points which could be considered relevant to this RfC and overall discussion. For example, the concept of preserving historical gender, Sonique (at the time in 2009 for filming) did need to identify and present as male in order to compete on the show (confirmed by multiple contestants of the earlier seasons), which showed some form of male identification originally before coming out publicly as a transgender woman during the reunion. Also, with Sonique herself confirming she lived as a male during the time this could further support the historical gender concept if the closing editor believes it to be relevant. Brocicle (talk) 15:15, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

• Shockingly, you are--yet again--babbling on without any idea what you're talking about. RuPaul, who is the ultimate arbiter of who does and does not get on the show, has stated publicly more than once that the only thing they screen for in applicants is (a series of qualities forming an acronym I'd rather not repeat). Plus, 'historical gender' is just... for fuck's sake, you clearly know NOT A SINGLE THING AT ALL ABOUT BEING TRANS (or indeed any kind of queer) so how about HERE IS A SHOCKING IDEA, how about you shut your smug straight cis mouth and LISTEN TO PEOPLE WHO KNOW MORE THAN YOU DO. For chrissake. 24.138.76.242 (talk) 22:23, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Please remain civil in your discussion and behaviour with and towards other editors. And do not assume how someone else personally identifies because of differing opinions. Thank you. Brocicle (talk) 15:37, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Sure, when you stop being transphobic. I'm not making assumptions, I'm looking at what you have said on your user page. So fine, straight up: are you trans? (we know the answer). Are you queer? (likewise). YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.24.138.76.242 (talk) 14:03, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

• To be honest, this is a well-justified point and I'd support the reverse (current name with former name as a note) as a compromise. But I do have a couple of comments to make. The concept of "historical gender" is a nonsense one, not respected in any academic field—particularly not in medical science. As far as I can ascertain, it's a term coined by a Wikipedia editor; I deconstructed this notion above with the analogy of calling a gay person "formerly straight" (though I've now fixed a rather crucial word in my writing). It's a shame no-one in that discussion pointed this out but there you go. I'll add that the current state of affairs is not an argument for or against any particular outcome (take a look at WP:IAPD). — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 16:01, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

• Thank you for the clarification, perhaps historical gender isn't the correct term for what I'm trying to say. I dont know how to describe what I mean in clear terms without misinterpretation currently but I will add it in if I think of a way between now and the closing of the RfC if I can. Brocicle (talk) 17:01, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

• what you mean is deadnaming someone. what you mean is forcing recognition of an identity that has been discarded. what you mean is that you know jack and shit about trans issues, so sit down and shut up and listen to people who know what they're talking about. 24.138.76.242 (talk) 15:27, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

• Close. RfC's should be formed in a neutral way, not transphobic. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) wumbolo ^^^ 12:39, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Revisiting

@Newslinger: Can you explain how you reached that conclusion for the above conversation? At best it appears to be a no consensus, despite the comments made by our vociferous anonymous friend. Thanks. Nihlus 01:03, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• Not Newslinger and of course consensus is not about voting but by my reading, four participants argued in favour of using current names to one participant arguing in favour of the historical names (with one participant arguing for RfC closure). — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 01:26, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

  Looks like 3v2 to me, so that's hardly a consensus. I'm not sure where you are getting 4v1. Nihlus 10:32, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• Hi Nihlus, here are the positions each of the participants took:
  1. Brocicle: Mention current preferred name in footnote; use former name
  2. 24.138.76.242: Use current preferred name; mention former name in footnote
  3. Bilorv: Use current preferred name; don't use former name
  4. Armadillopteryx: Mention current preferred name in footnote; use former name
  5. Innisfree987: Use current preferred name; don't use former name
  6. Wumbolo: No position taken

All editors who expressed an opinion approved of using the contestants' current preferred names in the article, but editors were split on whether the contestants' former names should be mentioned. The only guideline that relates to this RfC is Wikipedia:Manual of Style § Gender identity (MOS:GENDERID), which recommends that editors "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources" and is in line with the majority opinion here. Altogether, it's clear that the current preferred names should be used in the article.

My closing summary should have been more clear on whether it's appropriate to mention the contestants' former names (even if only in a footnote). I didn't comment on this, even though it's the question explicitly asked in the RfC statement, because the RfC statement doesn't fully explain the dispute at "Sonique/Deadname" ("the discussion above"). Editors are most interested in whether the current preferred names or the former names should be used as the primary names in the article, and asking whether the article should "not include the former legal name" only reveals half of the dispute. You're right in that there's no consensus on whether it's appropriate to mention the contestants' former names in the article, and I've amended the closing summary to include this. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Finally, while I note that 24.138.76.242 was less than civil in the RfC, I didn't factor this into the closure. ​— Newslinger talk 09:13, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Newslinger, 3v2 is not a consensus for either point. Period. So please revert your close or I will open a new discussion. The line you speak about in MOS:GENDERID is for the Main biographical article on a person whose gender might be questioned. When Referring to the person in other articles it should be a case-by-case basis. It is clear that you misquoted and misapplied that policy in order to form a consensus that is not there. Nihlus 10:42, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

You're right. Thanks for pointing out my mistakes. I've changed the closure to "no consensus" and struck the statements that are invalid. A new discussion might be warranted. ​— Newslinger talk 10:58, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Newslinger, thank you. I will work on a revised RfC sometime today that will apply to all articles under the Drag Race umbrella. Nihlus 11:01, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

I personally am not sure that an RfC to apply across the board is appropriate. This was partly because of the very limited notice of Kylie on this page and in the encyclopedia. Circumstances might merit a different decision for other contestants or in other seasons. Innisfree987 (talk) 19:53, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

There are no circumstances that change the inappropriateness and transphobia of insisting on using names that people no longer identify with. 24.138.76.242 (talk) 18:47, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Sure there is. Some transgender people themselves refer to their previous name when discussing previous events. If they feel ok with it, I don’t think the encyclopedia needs to exclude it, only to make sure there’s not undue weight put on it (e.g. if it’s mentioned once in a long entry about their life.) That’s not applicable here though, among other reasons because Kylie is only briefly mentioned so adding her previous name would necessarily put undue weight on her transition. Innisfree987 (talk) 18:59, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

It's not transphobic. If you are incapable of having a civil discussion with others, then please take it elsewhere. Nihlus 19:11, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

It is 100% transphobic to insist on deadnames. If you do not understand that, you are not qualified to be in this discussion. 24.138.76.242 (talk) 18:17, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't believe that is the case. If you think there are going to be different ways in how we handle a general concept, then please explain. Otherwise, I will move forward with the RfC soon when I have the time. Nihlus 19:12, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Sure thing. For instance, if it were to be the case that a contestant's transition had been a significant element of a particular season (maybe there is such a case already, I've only seem some of the show), and that were reflected by secondary sources covering the show, and also sources indicated the subject didn't object to use of their former name (in the spirit though not letter of WP:BLPPRIVACY)--then I think a short mention, perhaps a footnote, could be appropriate within a much larger section that otherwise used the person's most recent self-designation. Kylie's mention in this entry is very far from that situation though, and I can imagine any number of cases in between that would mean it's hard to formulate a single "RuPaul's Drag Race" rule, other than reiterating our existing policies deciding according to GENDERID (which as you note advises taking these matters on a case-by-case basis), DUEWEIGHT, and so forth. Put differently: I think WP:NOTBURO is good counsel here. Innisfree987 (talk) 19:49, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

One more thing to keep in mind. An overarching BLP principle is that we must err on the side of avoiding harming living individuals. There's no question that at least some transgender people experience harm from use of their prior name. If avoiding that harm that means there's some inconsistency in WP descriptions of episodes of a television show, well, we really need to keep our priorities straight. Innisfree987 (talk) 20:01, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

The harm comes from including potentially false or libelous information or gossip that may be untrue. Verifiable names at the time of a contest are not harmful in that sense. It could be if an individual is rumored to be transitioning, but not for individuals who are clearly out. Nihlus 20:12, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

That's not the only harm at issue here. If you're not aware of others, I'd recommend reading about deadnaming for starters. Innisfree987 (talk) 20:20, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Do not assume that I am not aware of the issues they are facing. There is a difference between deadnaming someone while speaking of them in the present and mentioning their name at the time they participated in the show. Regardless, I'm not here to talk about these issues or for others to try to educate me on stuff I already know. Save it for the RfC. Nihlus 20:27, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

It's really easy to assume that you are unaware of the isasues, when you are demonstrating that you are...unaware of the issues. Deadnaming isn't something that is okay in these cases and not in those cases, it's not okay ever unless the specific trans person in question has said it is. 18:20, 18 February 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.76.242 (talk)

Innisfree987, no one has stated that we should use a single rule and only use that rule, so I will take that argument with a grain of salt. Additionally, flexible rules can easily exist and handle multiple situations that may come up. Nonetheless, at the end of the day I really don't care which consensus we come up with as long as we come up with one from a neutrally worded RfC. The one above was definitely not that. The first step would be seeing which transgender contestants there are and how their situations are similar and how they are different. Nihlus 19:56, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

I think I must not understand what you mean by a revised RfC...that will apply to all articles under the Drag Race umbrella other than that we should use a single rule and only use that rule for Drag Race entries. But in any case, anyone is free to open an RfC. Just my two cents. Innisfree987 (talk) 20:06, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

The RfC would apply to all articles, not necessarily the result. Nihlus 20:13, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:RuPaul's Drag Race#RfC on names of transgender contestants

A new RfC related to the above has been opened at Talk:RuPaul's Drag Race#RfC on names of transgender contestants. Innisfree987 (talk) 00:17, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Tyra Sánchez (fan art).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:38, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Tyra Sanchez leaving drag

Hi all, I noticed someone changed all references to 'Tyra Sanchez' to 'James Ross formerly known as Tyra Sanchez' I assume in light of 2020 Ross announcing he is now longer doing drag. I've reverted these back due to from my understanding Tyra Sanchez would be the correct name as technically this is the queen who won, as opposd to Ross, even if now James Ross has retired the Tyra persona. Am I right in thinking this? Thanks Hcvfd (talk) 17:13, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Ongoing discussion regarding high, safe and low placements.

Hello all. Currently, at the page for the RPDR Wikiproject, we started a discussion about how to properly define these placements, since the lack of clear criteria has led to a lot of subjective edits and in some cases, edit warring. Since these definitions could potentially effect the placement tables through all the seasons, we would like to receive the widest possible input, to make sure that all the views and perspectives are taken in account. So, anyone interested in taking part in the conversation, please give us your view at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race#Establishing_a_consistent_criteria_for_SAFE%2C_HIGH_and_LOW_placements Not A Superhero (talk) 05:23, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Troll

The country origin isn't an actual country & the names of the contestants are incorrect GJ5914 (talk) 04:29, 2 February 2023 (UTC)