Talk:Ruben Vardanyan (politician)

Much dubious content in this article

Was this article lifted unaltered from a press release written by his office? Most of the content was added by a single editor who has worked on nothing else. Vardanyan is actually one of Armenia's "legal criminal" oligarchs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.184.0 (talk) 03:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

• There is a OCCRP investigation about Vardanyan and Troika Dialog: https://www.occrp.org/en/troikalaundromat/vast-offshore-network-moved-billions-with-help-from-major-russian-bank I think it should be added to the article. --Unreal79 (talk) 13:37, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

External links

Edwardx I find some removed [1] external links useful. There is data that is missing from the article. I deserves place here unless you add the essential information from the links in the article. Watti Renew (talk) 17:01, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

ok these were not relevant. Watti Renew (talk) 17:25, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Advertorial Tag Removal

This article was improved considerably by me. All the advertorial materials have been removed from the article. If anyone wants to contest this action, please feel free to discuss here. Gluconuh (talk) 08:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

"Russian"

I've removed the descriptor of Ruben Vardanyan as "Russian" in the first sentence of the article since this is discouraged by MOS:ETHNICITY. He renounced his Russian citizenship. Regardless of his apparent reasons for doing so, this generally means that he should no longer be described as Russian. Furthermore, the term "Russian-Armenian" is itself problematic since hyphens can imply ethnicity-nationality, whereas we are only supposed to list nationalities. So, before he renounced his Russian citizenship, it would have been better to describe him as a "Russian and Armenian" politician/businessman, with the "and" replacing the hyphen. Now that he has renounced his Russian citizenship and acquired Artsakh citizenship (whilst retaining his Armenian citizenship), he should be described as "Armenian and Artsakh(i)". Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:12, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Russia is mentioned numerous times throughout the body section of the article, but it isn't mentioned in the lead (except for in the nationality part that I removed), and it also isn't mentioned in the early life section (of course, it is possible that Vardanyan migrated to Russia as an adult). As it stands, Vardanyan's exact relationship with Russia is not very clear in the article, as the article just starts discussing Russia without clarifying the exact relationship. The article needs to be clarified so that we know exactly how Vardanyan is connected to Russia; for example, if he migrated to Russia at some point, then that information should be clearly explained. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:12, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

It does say that he graduated from Moscow State University in the early life section, which is located in Russia. Immediately beforehand, it says that he graduated from "Yerevan School No. 35", which is in Armenia, in 1985. So, using my detective skills, I suspect that Vardanyan immigrated to Russia in 1985. This information should be obvious, but it is not directly stated in the article even though it's implied (by the fact that he was originally in Armenia and then suddenly teleported into Russia). Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:16, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Note: At the time (1985), Russia and Armenia were both parts of the Soviet Union, so it wouldn't have been very difficult for Vardanyan to immigrate from Armenia to Russia at the time. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Article name

I can see in the history of this article that it was renamed to "Ruben Vardanyan (politician)" on November 4, 2022. Subsequently, it was reverted back to "Ruben Vardanyan (businessman)" on January 18, 2023‎, with no explanation.

In my view, the new title is perfectly acceptable, and I can't see anything particularly wrong with it. I support moving the article to "Ruben Vardanyan (politician)". Currently, Ruben Vardanyan is a politician, even though he has only been one for a brief period of time (from what I can tell). His political position is very important in the relative part of the world in which he is currently located, so it certainly satisfies the NOTABILITY requirements. His business ventures are also important, but his political position seems to be more important than his business ventures. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:27, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Article seems heavily astroturfed

All references to this guy being a Russian oligarch close to Putin who was sanctioned seem to have dissapeared, or the fact that he is suspected of being a russian agent sent to stepanakert to preserve Russian interests from the inside. Along with corruption he has been accused of. Article ready like a fluff piece of a philanthropist with the heart of gold type shtick. Midgetman433 (talk) 03:14, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Oligarch or Philantropist

Hi @Kevo327. You removed "Oligarch part" from the article and added "Philantropist". And left a message: "most WP:RS describe him as philanthropist or businessman, ad sources". I restored former sources which includes Financial Times. And added more sources. I hope we are not going to discuss whether Jamestown, Politico, Foreign Policy, BBC, Washington Post are reliable or not. Simple Google search let's you to find lot's of reliable articles about Vardanyan being Oligarch. I can add more sources if 13 is not enough to persuade you.

For now I kept the "Philantropist" part to have a discussion first. You could also do the same btw. I don't think we should keep Philantropist word there. Most oligarchs do such things in order to white wash their reputation. He was also part of Troika Laundromat. He's close person to Putin and even nicknamed "Putin's wallet".[2][3][4] Aredoros87 (talk) 15:39, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm removing the "Philanthropist" part due to the no response from Kevo32 (the user was blocked indefinitely). Aredoros87 (talk) 11:48, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Biased and outdated content

I would like to flag that this article is overly negative in tone and comes across as very biased against Mr Vardanyan. The article has no reference to the calls for Mr Vardanyan's release from prominent public figures such as Henrikh Mikhitaryan. Furthermore, assertions that he maintains 'close ties' to Vladimir Putin are at least out of date, if not slanderous, considering Mr Vardanyan's renouncement of his Russian citizenship. Timb1976 (talk) 15:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

This was reported in multiple sources, in Armenia, Azerbaijan and internationally. The article does not claim it as a fact, it says that this is what some sources report. The calls for release could be mentioned, with attribution. Grandmaster 07:55, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

POV edits

@Shinadamina, your edits are very concerning. You deleted official charge 2 times[1][2] and put "political prisoner" term with terrible sources (Armenian state channel and ArmenianWeekly). Moreover, you deleted Putin's relationship with Vardanyan under the edit summary "Ref bombing cleanup".[3]. Aredoros87 (talk) 19:51, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, based on your edit history, you seem to have a strong bias towards Turkish and Azerbaijani subjects, so perhaps it is a COI. I don't mind that you bring this up for discussion because we need the article to be neutral per WP:POV and I found that the article is lump sided. Using the words "political prisoner" comes from several sources and is more neutral than calling him a Terrorist.

Vadanyan has been referred to as a political prisoner in both US Congress and UK Parliament:

https://www.congress.gov/congressional-record/volume-170/issue-98/senate-section/article/S4011-2

https://www.markey.senate.gov/news/press-releases/senators-markey-and-cassidy-urge-state-department-to-help-secure-release-of-political-prisoners-held-by-azerbaijan

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2024-03-19/debates/667E701E-BF59-41AF-AB5C-624F772EA4BC/Nagorno-KarabakhArmenianRefugees

The fact is that he is illegally detained in violation of international laws (according to several sources).

According to US Congress:

"These eight former officials have been held in pretrial detention for more than 8 months. And just last month, Azerbaijani authorities extended the detention with another 5 months--without a trial, without due process--and Azerbaijan has routinely resorted to hostage diplomacy, prolonging unlawful detention and using prisoners of war as bargaining chips to impose its demands on Armenia, in clear violation of international law." Shinadamina (talk) 08:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

you seem to have a strong bias towards Turkish and Azerbaijani subjects, so perhaps it is a COI. this is not the way editors talk to each other here. Take a look on WP:ASG. Please keep it WP:CIVIL and refrain from attacking unless you have something to show on WP:COI/N.

...is more neutral than calling him a Terrorist no idea where does this come from.

Vadanyan has been referred to as a political prisoner in both US Congress and UK Parliament this is utterly false. US Congress didn't adopt any resolution or anything. It's an opinion by two senators. They do not represent the entire congress. The same thing goes for the UK Parliament as well. It's one personal opinion.

You restored the non-WP:RS sources[1]. One of them belongs to the government of Armenia, while the other one belongs to ARF. Alongside the sources, you restored the edit which breaks MOS:LEAD and WP:PEACOCK.

And lastly, do you care to explain your secret removal of Putin's relationship to Vardanyan under the edit summary "Ref bombing cleanup"? Aredoros87 (talk) 19:38, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

There are many additional sources that call Vardanyan and the others that are being held as "Political Prisoners." Please check:

https://www.barrons.com/news/rights-of-detained-ex-karabakh-leader-must-be-respected-un-22f12b71

https://en.aravot.am/2024/04/25/346342/

https://news.am/eng/news/818739.html

https://ancuk.org.uk/anc-uk-newsletter-april-2024/

https://asbarez.com/ruben-vardanyan-was-tortured-in-baku-prison-legal-team-says/

https://zartonkmedia.com/2024/04/20/prompted-by-international-pressure-ruben-vardanyan-finally-allowed-phone-call-with-family-reveals-he-is-in-complete-isolation-his-health-is-deteriorating/

Regarding all other edits related to Puttin, they did not comply with POV and represented the subject in a negative way. Some of the sources were low quality and also we need multiple sources for any controversial edits per WP:EXCEPTIONAL we would need multiple high quality sources. Shinadamina (talk) 02:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

The first source does not call Vardanyan a political prisoner. It discuses a call from the UN officials to respect the rights of Vardanyan in detention. The rest are not reliable third party sources. Grandmaster 13:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

@Grandmaster please note that Aredoros87 previously had a 3-month block on editing Azeri/Armenia related pages. This is more proof that he may have a bias and his opinions should not be considered valid.

The term political prisoner in regards to the subject has been used in the US Congress and UK Parliament per 3 sources I posted in my initial response.

It is also unreasonable to dismiss every source I provided as unreliable. Specifically, news.am and Asbarez (US-based) are highly credible and well-known for news websites. Both have Wikipedia pages, indicating their established reputations and are not blogs.

And here are more sources calling him a Political Prisoner:

https://euro.dayfr.com/world/2306285.html

https://www.jurist.org/news/2024/06/former-nagorno-karabakh-officials-legal-team-claims-azerbaijan-tortured-client/

https://iravaban.net/en/481606.html

https://armenianweekly.com/2024/04/26/ruben-vardanyan-granted-permission-to-speak-with-family-who-plea-for-end-to-his-hunger-strike/ Shinadamina (talk) 18:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

1. The 1st link doesn't call him "political prisoner". Please stop putting random links.
2. aravot.am, news.am are Yerevan-based news agencies.
3. ancuk.org.uk belongs to Armenian National Commitee (diaspora) of UK ultimately ARF
4. Ashbarez belongs to ARF aswell
5. Zartonik belongs to Armenian Diaspora in US. And it's a WP:PARTISAN website.[1][2]

This's the 2nd time you bring up ARF outlets. None of them is a WP:RS source in WP:GS/AA scope. Reliable sources are Financial Times, Guardian, Washington Post etc. which has been used in the article.

Some of the sources were low quality which one for example?

Do you plan to explain your restoration of the edit which breaks MOS:LEAD and WP:PEACOCK -- which I mentioned above? Aredoros87 (talk) 21:04, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

@Aredoros87 I responded to all your concerns at the Request for Enforcement forum. The issue with Political Prisoner was also further explained there. It does not take a genius to figure out when someone is arrested for a war crime, he is a political prisoner. I gave you 10 citations from publications and 3 more transcripts from US Congress and UK Parliament calling him "Political Prisoner."

Yes I agree some of those sources could be unreliable, however as I stated before It is also unreasonable to dismiss every source I provided as unreliable. Specifically, news.am and Asbarez (US-based) are highly credible and well-known for news websites. Both have Wikipedia pages, indicating their established reputations and are not blogs. In addition Armenian Weekly is also a reliable publication. This one also has a wiki page. The fact that the US Congress and Uk Parliament have discussed it and called him a Political Prisoner, can also be used as a valid citation.

The examples of unreliable sources which I removed are:

https://jamestown.org/program/azerbaijan-grows-wary-of-russian-oligarch-vardanyans-true-intentions-in-karabakh/ It is a conservative defense policy thinktank according to its Wiki page, and can be considered biased to certain subjects

https://townhall.com/columnists/wesmartin/2023/01/08/is-putin-preparing-to-replace-armenias-pro-democracy-prime-minister-with-his-own-un-elected-oligarch-n2618021 it's American conservative website, according to its Wiki page and can be considered biased towards some subjects.

https://roscongress.org/speakers/vardanyan-ruben/biography/ - this is a bio page and not acceptable as a citation

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/analysis-opinion/1696069350-russia-s-vladimir-putin-s-wallet-who-is-ruben-vardanyan-analysis - Israeli publication and biased. As we know Israel provided arms to Azerbaijan and is their supporter, so we can't consider any Israeli publication to write unbiased articles about Armenian subjects.

Some other references were removed because of REFBOMB issues. If there is anything I removed that you think should not have been removed, please feel free to post here for discussion.

Regarding MOS:LEAD, it was not me that inserted the info initially, but when you removed it, I restored it because I found the info to be relevant. If there is any issue why you think the info should not be in the intro, please post your explanation.

Keep in mind that you were previously banned for three months from editing Azeri/Armenian topics, and your edit history indicates a bias towards Azeri and Turkish subjects. I hope you can approach this subject impartially, but I if see any further issues with your edits, I will report you to the enforcement forum. Shinadamina (talk) 08:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

news.am and Asbarez are not third party sources. They are not reliable for the claims that you made in the article. Also, most of the sources that you provided simply report the opinion of Vardanyan's lawyers. The opinions cannot be presented as facts, in particular when they clearly have a conflict of interest. It is not universally accepted to call Vardanyan a political prisoner. No serious international organization does it. Statements of individual politicians are not reliable sources in this context. They can only be used to present the opinions of those politicians, if those politicians are notable, but not for statements of facts. In addition, you cannot remove the charges made against Vardanyan. We must inform the reader what exactly he is being accused of. Whether those charges are true or not is not up to us to decide. Our task is to present all the available information in a neutral fashion. Grandmaster 08:54, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@Grandmaster So, is it your opinion that Vardanyan is not a political prisoner? This seems to be the main point of contention between us. Can you explain why you believe we shouldn't label him as a political prisoner? If you don't consider him a political prisoner, what type of prisoner do you think he is?

Our task is to be neutral per WP:NPV and that is all I am trying to do. However, I welcome all opinions from other editors on this subject. If we don't get enough participation, we can post an RFC and take a vote on the matter.

I also don't think you can be impartial and unbiased regarding this subject, because based on your edit history and userpage, you have a strong affection for Azeri and Turkish subjects. Shinadamina (talk) 05:30, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that you don't understand how this project works. It does not matter what we think. It only matters what the majority of reliable third party sources say. Is it universally accepted that Vardanyan is a political prisoner? Just because Vardanyan's lawyers, family members and senator Markey say so does not mean that he is. Markey is just one of 535 congress members. The views on the subject must be presented according to their weight, which holds that "Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority is as significant as the majority view". We don't see that major international news outlets, human rights organizations (HRW, etc) or supranational entities (UN) call him a political prisoner. You try to push the minority view as the majority view, despite no consensus at talk. Also, you should mind WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, and comment on content, not the contributor. This is not the first time you being warned about it. This type of editing may eventually result in sanctions. Grandmaster 08:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Just because the Azerbaijani government labels him a terrorist does not mean he is one. His arrest for war crimes by Azerbaijan already classifies him as a political prisoner. Our goal is to remain neutral. The accusations against him are unproven, and even an Azerbaijani court conviction wouldn't be valid without UN or world court recognition. Therefore, presenting Azerbaijan's claims alone is not neutral. If consensus arises that he should not be labeled a political prisoner, we can adjust it.

I also will be watching this page for any editors that may have apparent bias or COI and report them to admins. Shinadamina (talk) 23:48, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

No one says that he is a terrorist. What we must write is that he is charged with terrorism. It is an undisputed fact that these are the charges that are made against him. Being charged and actually being something are two different things. That's what the article said: he was charged by Azerbaijani authorities with "financing terrorism, creating illegal armed formations and illegally crossing a state border". It is an accurate and verifiable info, attributed to the Azerbaijani government, that such charges are made. We must also present the position of the defense that denies charges. Both sides of the story must be presented for neutrality. You cannot remove the info that you do not agree with. As for political prisoner, you cannot claim that he is one, because it is a minority view. As for consensus. you must seek it, because there are 2 editors who do not agree with you. Grandmaster 12:43, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

There has been no response to my last comment for about a week. If there are no further objections, I will roll back the edits that have no consensus to the original version. Grandmaster 07:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm confused, what is that you're planning to change? Because the bogus charges shouldn't be in the lead, for example, and unless there are sources disputing that he's a political prisoner, how can you decide if it's a "minority view" or not? Please explain exactly what you want to change before doing it. Vanezi (talk) 09:31, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I want to restore what exactly he is being charged with, because the information about that was completely removed from the article in violation of WP:NPOV, and attribute the claim that he is a political prisoner, because it is a view held by a tiny minority. He is not recognized as a political prisoner by HRW, Amnesty or anyone else, and the opinion of a US congressman and Vardanyan's lawyers and family must be attributed to them, and not claimed as fact, per WP:Weight. And it is you who should demonstrate that it is generally accepted to consider Vardanyan a political prisoner to claim it as a fact. In addition, the article claims that "The US Congress has stated that he and several others have been illegally detained in violation of international laws", while it is a blatant misrepresentation of the source as was admitted by an admin at WP:AE. The US congress never said that Vardanyan was a political prisoner, senator Markey did, and he is only 1 person that does not represent the entire congress. Grandmaster 10:50, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@Shinadamina: @Vanezi Astghik: Do you have any further objections if I restore the original version of the intro, as discussed in my above comments? Grandmaster 07:01, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

As I said, the bogus charges shouldn't be in lead, but I'm not sure if it's even suited for the body because there are sources directly disputing the legitimacy of these "terrorism" claimed charges, including UN article [5]:

• "The military operation resulted also in the arrest and transfer to Baku of several prominent leaders and former leaders of the autonomous government, as well as civilian, law enforcement and military officials and troops, to be accused on vague charges of “terrorism.” The exact number and identities, legal status and conditions of detention of these persons deprived of freedom are not known as of this writing, save for the names of a handful of well-known regional leaders, several of them arrested by Azerbaijani forces before they could enter Armenia through the Lachin Corridor.... Other members of the group suffered severe bodily or mental harm in the form of arbitrary arrests that have not been independently investigated. More importantly, the closure of the Lachin corridor subjected all members of the community to mental torture or ill-treatment that caused anxiety in relation to survival from hunger and disease (Article II (b) of the Genocide Convention)"

Also big deal is that Juan Mendez is a UN official.

And from PACE it states that the number of politically persecution in Azerbaijan ramped up in 2023 - Azerbaijan arbitrarily detaining people and pushing them through sham trials is supported in sources, this shouldn't be attributed to one US congressman, just because the article currently doesn't have other sources for it doesn't mean they don't exist, see UN above and the following too:

• "The intensification of repression against Azerbaijani journalists, trade union activists, environmental defenders, opposition figures and prisoners of conscience since the beginning of 2023 is concerning. Notably, in the previous 12 months, the number of political prisoners in Azerbaijan has doubled from 99 to more than 200 people. The crackdown on civil society in Azerbaijan is more obvious than ever, while reprisals and political persecution by the government remain key instruments for intimidating and silencing critical voices." The government is infamous for the use of fabricated criminal charges and torture against political prisoners." [6]

And others:

• 1) "The letter signed by Aurora laureates, who include former presidents Oscar Arias of Costa Rica, Mary Robinson of Ireland, and Ernesto Zedillo of Mexico, called the arrest of Vardanyan "both outrageous and politically motivated.” [7]
• 2) "Numerous human rights organizations, national governments, and international bodies have called for Azerbaijan to release Ruben and the other Nagorno-Karabakh political prisoners." [8]
• 3) "All Armenian Men in Nagorno-Karabakh Are Now Targets for Arbitrary Detention." [9]

So this is my suggestion on re-adding the bogus charges to body with appropriate WP:DUE short wording and context from sources:

• "Vardanyan was arrested in September 2023 on unproven charges of "terrorism", during the flight of the entire Nagorno-Karabakh population. At the checkpoint, Azerbaijan carried arbitrary arrests of civilians and prominent NKR figures, in what certain political observers and human rights organiations consider fabricated or vague"

This is supported by UN, PACE and several other sources, let me know what you think.

Also political prisoner should stay in the article (I don't mind moving it to body too) per new sources such as this [10], we can attribute it if needed like I quoted in number 1. This isn't a "minority" view, and political prisoners in general aren't a new thing in Azerbaijan, that part about other political prisoners in general like the PACE (and many others) stated shouldn't be attributed to anybody, it's a factual statement. Vanezi (talk) 16:12, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Information about criminal charges cannot be removed from the article. We must inform the reader what exactly this person is being charged with. The fact that some sources dispute the charges does not mean that we should not explain what exactly the charges are. And the sources that you quoted do not constitute the majority. Most of them are people who received awards from Vardanyan's Aurora organization. PACE document is a letter by a few MPs that commits only those who signed. It does not represent the position of the organization itself, and it makes no mention of Vardanyan. I don't see how it is relevant here. The UN document is a letter by the Armenian government, to which Mendez's letter is annexed, and he is a former official. That is not the position of the UN itself, but personal opinion of Mendez. No major human rights organization, such as HRW or Amnesty, considers Vardanyan a political prisoner. He is not recognized as such by any supranational organization, such as UN or CoE. The overwhelming majority of the mainstream international media does not call him a political prisoner, in fact I found none that did. Some example reports that make no mention of this person being a political prisoner: [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] We can only attributive the political prisoner claims to the people who make them, but certainly not claim it as a fact. And your proposed wording is not Ok. Obviously, the charges remain unproven until the trial. No one is arrested on proven charges. And the rest is WP:SYNTH. We can only write that Vardanyan was detained at the border, and such and such charges were brought against him. This is a verifiable info. The position of the defense needs to be presented too, i.e. that they disagree with the charges. Grandmaster 07:14, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

I have also attributed the statement of senator Markey. Grandmaster 07:31, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

We must act conservatively in this matter as per WP:BLP.

Human rights organizations (e.g., Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention) have indicated that the charges laid on Vardanyan and other former Artsakh officials were "vague" or "fabricated." If we adhere to your logic that we should not include information because "the overwhelming majority of sources do not mention it" (even though sources not mentioning something doesn't mean they dispute it), then we should also NOT specify the allegations against him. Only one of the five sources you proided ([11] [12] [13] [14] [15]) specify the charges.

It is debatable that Vardanyan is a public figure given that he held office for less than 4 months and for a position that was not recognized publicly by the international community (the Republic of Artsakh and its officials were not internationally recognized). WP:BLPCRIME: "For individuals who are not public figures...editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed or is accused of having committed a crime, unless a conviction has been secured."

In addition, multiple human rights organizations, publications, and prominent figures consider his detention to be arbitrary and/or politically motivated.

This situation is summarized by this source: "Numerous human rights organizations, national governments, and international bodies have called for Azerbaijan to release Ruben and the other Nagorno-Karabakh political prisoners." [16]

This is BLP. We must act conservatively given that there are multiple reputable sources who consider his arrest to be arbitrary and/or politically motivated.

Example source stating that the charges were "fabricated" [17]

• In its statement dated 28 September, the Lemkin Institute protested against the sentencing of Mr. Vardanyan to four months of “preventive detention” in Azerbaijan, which is presumed to be followed by legal proceedings involving a range of fabricated claims that could potentially result in a 14-year prison sentence.

So this is my suggestion as compromise: we agree to adding the proposed text in my previous comment, which keeps the dubious charges short and vague (per sources), and also provides additional context from sources (especially for strict BLP) that the charges are vague and or fabricated. I'm trying my best to reach a compromise here even though this is a strict BLP article and per WP:BLPCRIME it shouldn't even include ANY of the charges (and charges that have their legiticamy doubted by RS btw) when he's not even convicted.

Side note: the "several others" part in here [18] didn't need an attribution; senator Markey isn't the only source calling out Azerbaijan for this, here from US Department of State and other sources I showed in my previous comment: [19]

• "The government continued to prosecute detained ethnic Armenian civilians and Armenian soldiers in public trials that lacked elements of due process such as a right to legal representation during questioning, adherence to basic evidentiary standards, and lack of an independent judiciary."

So if you don't mind, I'll make a seperate sentence and remove the attribution from the "several others" part you edited (per multiple sources I've shown here), and keep Markey attribution only for Vardanyan for now. Vanezi (talk) 09:02, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Vardanyan was an official of a separatist entity. It was unrecognized, but he was still a public figure. Even the US State Department that you quoted mentions that. Plus, public figure is not necessarily an official, any person who gets public attention is a public figure. Therefore Vardanyan cannot be treated as a regular person. Also, the part of the US State department report that you quoted does not apply to Vardanyan, because he has not been tried yet. It is about previously arrested and tried civilians and soldiers (not officials). But this part does apply to Vardanyan:

There were reports Azerbaijani authorities had arrested at least eight senior ethnic Armenian Nagorno-Karabakh “officials” as of November 2 as well as ethnic Armenian residents accused of war crimes and terrorism. According to RFE/RL, as of October 11, most charges against the “officials” involved financing or organizing terrorism as well as acquisition and transfer of firearms.

So here is another source that mentions the charges brought against this person. The US State Department source actually supports the original wording of the article, as it does not call Vardanyan a political prisoner, and mentions charges brought against him.

Lemkin Institute is a small NGO that shows strong bias in Karabakh issue. But I see no major human rights organization such as HRW or Amnesty calling Vardanyan a political prisoner. Also, the position of Vardanyan's lawyers cannot be taken at the face value. They have an obvious conflict of interest here. Who exactly are those "Numerous human rights organizations, national governments, and international bodies"? We need to be specific, and establish if those opinions constitute the majority. I don't see that they do. This is a POV edit that was made against consensus: [20] I suggest we roll this edit back to the version that was stable for quite some time. The issue is very simple. 1. Should we mention the exact criminal charges brought against Vardanyan? The answer is yes, because it is verifiable information that is important for the context. Obviously, it should be attributed as the position of Azerbaijani prosecution (as it was). 2. Should Vardanyan be called a political prisoner in wikivoice? I don't think this could be done per WP:WEIGHT. Most reliable third party sources do not call him a political prisoner. You proposed edit does not solve these issues. Are you Ok with restoring the original wording of the article before the edit in question? If we cannot agree on this, we should try dispute resolution. Grandmaster 13:08, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Your comment confuses me; you spent all the energy focusing on state department source when I just provided it for these edits about "several others" part that clearly don't need attribution. The same sentiment can be found in UN, PACE and many other sources; the fact that Azerbaijan arbitrarily detains people with made up evidence/claims and pushes them through sham trials is NOT something new, it's been going on for years and is supported in sources:

• Azerbaijan alleged that Vagif Khachatryan was guilty of "war crimes" and that an international search warrant had been previously issued. Independent news outlet, Eurasianet said they could not find any evidence to substantiate Azerbaijan's claim. [21].
• "Azerbaijani forces detained these civilians even though there was no evidence that they posed any security threat – they had no weapons and did not participate in the hostilities." HRW

So as I said, I'll remove the "several others" part attribution from your edits and will add sources.

Now when this out of the way, let's talk about your 2 points:

1. Should we mention the exact criminal charges brought against Vardanyan?

This is my final suggestion of the text to include in body:

In September 2023, during the flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians Vardanyan was detained by Azerbaijan on charges of "financing terrorism, creating illegal armed formations and illegally crossing a state border."

Prominent international figures and human rights organizations, have called for the release of Vardanyan along with other former de facto Nagorno-Karabakh officials, considering his detention to be politically motivated or in violation of international laws.''

Even though I don't agree with including the full bogus charges in the article simply because of Azerbaijan's history of making stuff up and charging people with it through sham trials, I'm trying to reach a compromise here.

2. Should Vardanyan be called a political prisoner in wikivoice?

No, and I already made a suggestion to you:

• "The letter signed by Aurora laureates, who include former presidents Oscar Arias of Costa Rica, Mary Robinson of Ireland, and Ernesto Zedillo of Mexico, called the arrest of Vardanyan both outrageous and politically motivated." [22]

This is another compromise I'm willing to make in order to solve this dispute. Vanezi (talk) 04:46, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Please read my above comment on UN and PACE sources, which are not official UN and PACE positions. I re-post my above comment: PACE document is a letter by a few MPs that commits only those who signed. It does not represent the position of the organization itself, and it makes no mention of Vardanyan. I don't see how it is relevant here. The UN document is a letter by the Armenian government, to which Mendez's letter is annexed, and he is a former official. That is not the position of the UN itself, but personal opinion of Mendez. And who are those prominent figures who call for his release? Lemkin are not prominent, and Aurora prize laureates have a conflict of interest there. The prominent organizations (UN, PACE, HRW, Amnesty, etc) do not make such calls. I think we can word it as follows:

In September 2023, following the Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh, Vardanyan was detained by Azerbaijani authorities on charges of "financing terrorism, creating illegal armed formations and illegally crossing a state border."

There were calls by some public figures and organizations for the release of Vardanyan along with other former de facto Nagorno-Karabakh officials, who consider his detention to be politically motivated or in violation of international laws.''

The second part, I suggest we remove the claim of political prisoner in wiki voice, as you appear to agree to, and the part that you suggest can be included regardless. It is verifiable info, and I do not mind the inclusion of this in the body of the article:

"The letter signed by Aurora laureates, who include former presidents Oscar Arias of Costa Rica, Mary Robinson of Ireland, and Ernesto Zedillo of Mexico, called the arrest of Vardanyan both outrageous and politically motivated." [23]

Also, "several others" is a reference to the former NK leaders, and not those who call for Vardanyan's release. I believe senator Markey's statement should be removed from the lead, but kept in the body of the article. He is just one congressman out of hundreds, and does not represent the entire US congress. Grandmaster 08:43, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

If we must include the verbiage you stated, it is important to state that several sources have called it an illegal detention. Maybe we can say:

In September 2023, following the Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh, Vardanyan was detained illegally by Azerbaijani authorities. They alleged charges of "financing terrorism, creating illegal armed formations and illegally crossing a state border.

All your other suggestions I agree with except we should keep "political prisoner" because it is a fact and stated by many media. Shinadamina (talk) 01:13, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

We cannot say that the detention was illegal. It is a minority opinion, and it would not be in line with WP:NPOV and WP:Weight. Charges cannot be alleged, they are actual, i.e. it is a fact that they are brought against this person, not an allegation. We can only state that Azerbaijani authorities made such and such charges, and such and such people disagree with them. We cannot assume any position in a wiki voice here. My above proposed wording deals with all these aspects. Grandmaster 07:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Minority opinion??? In fact I presented at least 10 articles that call it illegal detention, plus it has been discussed in US congress, UK parliament and the UN calls it that too. How many articles could you produce that agree it was a legal detention? Shinadamina (talk) 08:19, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

We have discussed your sources above, they are not reliable third party sources. 1 US congressman (out of 535), 1 UK MP and a former UN official are a minority opinion. They do not represent those organizations. How many mainstream international media (such as BBC, New York Times, Washington Post, etc) call Vardanyan a political prisoner in their own voice? Which major international organizations (UN, PACE, OSCE, etc) call Vardanyan a political prisoner? Which major well established human rights organizations (HRW, Amnesty, etc) call him so? Lemkin is a small little known NGO that does not reflect the wider spectrum. The most prominent human rights organizations do not consider him a political prisoner. Once again, it is not generally accepted by the majority of reliable third party sources to call him a political prisoner. Grandmaster 09:22, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vanezi Astghik You quoted "The letter signed by Aurora laureates, who include former presidents Oscar Arias of Costa Rica, Mary Robinson of Ireland, and Ernesto Zedillo of Mexico, called the arrest of Vardanyan both outrageous and politically motivated." yet you say he should not be called a political prisoner! As this quote says his arrest was "politically motivated" doesn't that mean he is a political prisoner? Besides I have already provided several sources that have called him a political prisoner. Shinadamina (talk) 00:06, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

It is the opinion of some people, not a generally accepted fact. Aurora laureates do not represent the entire or most of the international community. We can only attribute their opinions to them. Grandmaster 07:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

This is my proposal if we end up deciding to add the bogus charges to the article body, context is very important especially if we're going to fully quote the bogus charges, which I agreed to as compromise in order to solve this dispute (others should also remember what compromise is in disputes):

In September 2023, during the flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians Vardanyan was detained by Azerbaijan on charges of "financing terrorism, creating illegal armed formations and illegally crossing a state border.

Prominent international figures and human rights organizations, have called for the release of Vardanyan along with other former de facto Nagorno-Karabakh officials, considering his detention to be politically motivated or in violation of international laws.

@Shinadamina This final sentence indicates that Vardanyan is considered a political prisoner by multiple sources. If Vardanyan's arrest was "politically motivated" then, by definition, his continuing detention means he is a "political prisoner." Do you agree with my proposal?

@Grandmaster: The Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention is a US-based non-profit human rights organization, run by multiple experts with PhDs in genocide studies. The institute does not exclusively focus on Azerbaijan/Armenia, but also covers topics ranging from Iraq, Bangladesh, Transphobia, and Ukraine. It is non-partisan. The Lemkin Institute is notable for being cited in dozens of peer-reviewed publications, in different languages, as well as in Reuters, RFERL, and JAMnews, University of London City Press, and Genocide Watch. The Lemkin Institute has also been mentioned in the proceedings of the UK Parliament. You can also see that the Lemkin Institute is listed by Genocide Studies International along with the United Nations as one among "five institutes... dedicated to the prevention of genocide and mass atrocity crimes around the world." I kindly suggest that you look at the Lemkin Institute's page before inserting your own WP:OR when characterizing this source. A good starting place might be the Wikipedia page on the Lemkin Institute. It's a good introduction at this organization's methodology and harks back to Rafael Lemkin, himself. Given the reach, scope, and references to the Lemkin Institute, it is clear that it is a reputable source that reaches a large audience. Vanezi (talk) 06:57, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Your proposed version is good, the only things that need changing are 1. He was detained as the consequence of Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh, and the flight was also the consequence of the offensive. Otherwise it is not clear why he was trying to escape to Armenia. The article had it that way for quite some time. And 2. "prominent" is not accurate. Lemkin are not prominent, and those Aurora laureates who received monetary awards from Vardanyan's foundation and thus have a conflict of interest, or a US senator are not prominent either. Also "international figures" is not a good expression, normally we say "public figures". For the sake of compromise, it could be "international public figures". Generally, public figure is someone who achieved some fame or prominence anyway. Also, Lemkin is the only human rights organization calling for Vardanyan's release, so we cannot put it in plural. But if state just "organizations", it would make more sense, as there are organizations (not necessarily human rights NGOs) that support him. Better wording would be: A number of public figures and organizations have called for the release of Vardanyan. Regarding Lemkin, they should be a subject to a separate discussion, but for the purposes of this article they are nowhere near the well established HRW or Amnesty, and do not represent the general consensus among the human rights NGOs. Therefore, let's settle on this version and have this dispute resolved:

In September 2023, following the Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh, Vardanyan was detained by Azerbaijani authorities on charges of "financing terrorism, creating illegal armed formations and illegally crossing a state border.

A number of international public figures and organizations have called for the release of Vardanyan along with other former de facto Nagorno-Karabakh officials, considering his detention to be politically motivated or in violation of international laws.

This is the text that we currently have in the article after the recent changes: On 27 September 2023, Vardanian's wife Veronika Zonabend told Russian media outlet Kommersant that she had "lost contact" with him following the Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh; on the same day, he was detained by the Azerbaijani State Border Service in the Lachin corridor while attempting to cross into Goris, Armenia.[18][19][20][21][22] Vardanyan’s wife, along with prominent international figures, and human rights organizations, have called for his release, describing the charges as fabricated. As of June 2024, he was still being held as a political prisoner awaiting trial. US senator Ed Markey stated that he and several others have been illegally detained in violation of international laws.

The above compromise wording should replace this part. Grandmaster 08:27, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Given that Vardanyan was quite literally fleeing Nagorno-Karabakh and he was arrested at the Lachin corridor while doing so (the only road to flee to Armenia), it makes sense to keep hyperlink to the Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians

My proposal:

In September 2023, during the flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians Vardanyan was detained by Azerbaijan on charges of "financing terrorism, creating illegal armed formations and illegally crossing a state border."

Prominent international figures and human rights organizations, have called for the release of Vardanyan along with other former de facto Nagorno-Karabakh officials, describing the charges as fabricated and considering his detention to be politically motivated or in violation of international laws.

I already compromised with you, now it's your turn to compromise, Grandmaster, you can't expect for one of us to only make compromises, that's not how it works. Again, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Furthermore, there are other prominent figures advocating for Vardanyan's release:

"Friends in high places in the West: Former Unilever boss Paul Polman and pharmaceutical company Moderna co-founder Noubar Afeyan are among those actively campaigning for Vardanyan’s release"

Vanezi (talk) 06:08, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Let's mention both and finish with it.

In September 2023, following the Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh and subsequent flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians, Vardanyan was detained by Azerbaijani authorities in the Lachin corridor on charges of "financing terrorism, creating illegal armed formations and illegally crossing a state border.

Regarding the second part, which prominent human rights organizations call for Vardanyan's release? Prominent ones say nothing. Lemkin is the only one, and it is not prominent. We cannot write inaccurate information, and present Lemkin in plural. That is why I proposed the following wording, without detailing what kind of organizations want Vardanyan out:

A number of internationally renowned public figures and organizations have called for the release of Vardanyan along with other former de facto Nagorno-Karabakh officials, considering his detention to be politically motivated or in violation of international laws. Grandmaster 07:50, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't mind hyperlinking both offensive and flight articles, I also wouldn't mind compromising on "prominent", but we should keep about the charges being considered fabricated especially if we're going to fully quote them:

In September 2023, following the Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh and subsequent flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians, Vardanyan was detained by Azerbaijani authorities in the Lachin corridor on charges of "financing terrorism, creating illegal armed formations and illegally crossing a state border.

A number of internationally renowned public figures and organizations have called for the release of Vardanyan along with other former de facto Nagorno-Karabakh officials, describing the charges as fabricated and considering his detention to be politically motivated or in violation of international laws.

Vanezi (talk) 05:55, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

That will work. I went ahead and implemented the changes, as agreed. I have also reduced the number of references, there were way too many. Please let me know if everything is Ok. Grandmaster 08:26, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The only problem is that you added the charges to the lede; I specifically compromised to include the bogus charges in this article only as part of the body, and explicitly stated that several times including in the initial proposal of the current wording [24]. I have implemented the agreed wording for body and removed the charges (and the fabricated part) from the lede, charges were discussed for body only. Vanezi (talk) 10:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

My understanding was that it was both for the lede and the body. But I'm OK with the present version. Grandmaster 07:29, 11 August 2024 (UTC)