Talk:Rushdy Abaza

Circassian Origins Dispute

@Fragrant Peony: recently published this edit, which effectively reverted my edit. When I reverted the page to my edit, he proceeded to revert it back to his preferred edit. I am writing here to explain the motivation behind my preferred edit, to try and seek a resolution to this dispute via Consensus, despite Fragrant Peony's ad hominem attacks against me and bad faith characterization of my edits as "vandalism."

First, I would like to note that all my change did was revert the changes introduced by an anonymous User in this change and this change. The effects of these changes were to modify the long-standing introductory sentence from

Rushdy Saiid Baghdadi Abaza (Egyptian Arabic: رشدي سعيد بغدادي أباظة) (3 August 1926 – 27 July 1980) was an Egyptian film and television actor of Circassian origin.

to

Rushdy Saiid Baghdadi Abaza (Egyptian Arabic: رشدي سعيد بغدادي أباظة) (3 August 1926 – 27 July 1980) was an Egyptian.

There are several reasons this edit made no sense, which should be obvious, not least that the sentence does not state the main thing this individual is actually famous for, namely, acting.

All my change did was revert the article to the previous state of affairs prior to the vandalistic edits by this anonymous user. Given that Wikipedia articles reflect Consensus, it can be safely inferred that no one really had an issue with the state of affairs of this article until the anonymous user introduced their edit.

The first thing I would like to note is that Fragrant Peony's revision changed the first sentence into the following, which besides not being a valid, grammatical sentence by the usual, accepted standards of formal, written English, clearly violates Manual of Style:

Rushdy Saiid Baghdadi Abaza (Egyptian Arabic: رشدي سعيد بغدادي أباظة) (3 August 1926 – 27 July 1980) was an Egyptian film and television actor was considered one of the most charming actors in the Egyptian film industry.

This edit shows that the user is not interested in constructively editing Wikipedia but rather is likely making poorly thought out edits because of an axe to grind- more on this later.

In their edit summary, Fragrant Peony makes three claims.

The first is that they were "clean[ing] up spamming." I would like to assert that I strongly rebuke this libelous characterization of my edit as "spamming," when in fact the changes I effected were themselves intended to counter the "spamming" edits of an anonymous user, especially since Fragrant Peony's own change made the first sentence ungrammatical.

Second, it asserts that "This his has nothing to do with lead section." But in fact there is ample precedent for including the ethnic origin of a person in the lead of their Wikipedia articles. Here are two random examples: Rexhep Krasniqi, Yusuf Agha.

Third, it asserts that the source is unreliable because it is from YouTube. First of all, something being on YouTube does not make it inherently unreliable. Second, the Circassian origin of the Abaza family is extremely well documented; refer to that page for more citations if you so desire. The literal meaning of the family name denotes "someone from Abkhazia" in Arabic.

If Fragrant Peony wishes to update the lead to include a more reliable source, please do so, but there is no reason to delete the reference to his ancestry altogether. As mentioned earlier, I suspect Fragrant Peony has an axe to grind, probably motivated by some nationalist sentiment. The main reason for my suspicions is that they have repeatedly characterized my edits as vandalism in complete bad faith, for the reasons explained above. This suggests they are uninterested in actually discussing the content of this page but would rather shut down discussion by making spurious accusations of vandalism, which indicates they have a prejudice or bias that makes them refuse to even consider the other position.

(talk) 20:56, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I am inviting @Fragrant Peony: to cease and desist from Edit warring and instead try and reach Consensus with me as per Dispute resolution policies. That means first ceasing to characterize my edits as vandalism; they are not, we simply disagree on what the content of the page should be.

I am also inviting input from third parties.

If Fragrant Peony prefers to continue unconstructively characterizing my edits as vandalism, even though, again, they merely reverted the article to their previous state before a clearly unconstructive edit, I will have to request administrator intervention.

I hope this is not the case and user Fragrant Peony decides to engage in a constructive process with me. Brusquedandelion (talk) 21:23, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

The amount of manipulation here is outstanding, that question was already answered on your talk page yet when you copy-pasted it all here you insisted to delete the response, again please follow the Guidelines and stop spamming:

"Please stop vandalising the encyclopedia and enforcing identities that he had never ever identified with to his own lead section. The man was of Egyptian and Italian descent, and only had one distant circassian grandmother, so to delete all his heritage and put a very misleading sentence is an act of Vandalism. Fragrant Peony (talk) 11:14, 4 December 2023 (UTC)"

You haven't addressed a single claim I made, neither on my talk page, nor your talk page, nor here. No one is "deleting all his heritage," our dispute is regarding a single clause in the lead paragraph. You have instead chosen to continue libelously characterizing my edits as vandalism, so I have no choice but to escalate this to third party intervention. I'm sorry that you are uninterested in a constructive conversation. Brusquedandelion (talk) 00:55, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

For starters you don't even know the difference between a lead section and an early life section, you got warned several times to follow the WP:Guidelines, secondly you clearly don't even speak Arabic-language because the YT video you are spamming with literally states that they have absloutely nothing to do with Circassians other than a distant grandmother'. So follow the encyclopedia rules and the early life section.

Fragrant Peony (talk) 01:09, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

You were the one who warned me, not some neutral third party nor an administrator, which is evidence you are using WP:Guidelines in extreme bad faith. As mentioned above (and initially on your talk page), there is ample precedent for mentioning the ethnic background of an individual in the lead of their Wikipedia article; I provided multiple examples above. I do know enough Arabic to follow the video, and by your own admission, the video states that they do have Circassian ancestry. This is also well documented on the Wikipedia page for their family, Abaza family. Their personal feeling about their connection to Circassia/Circassians is not what is at dispute here, and the fact you think it is suggests you have some sort of nationalist axe to grind.

If you want to debate the latter point, we can, but first you need to stop referring to my edits as spam or vandalism, and engage with me in good faith, as I am trying to do with you. Brusquedandelion (talk) 01:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion reset

Recent edits have added the text "of Circassian origin" to the introduction of the article, based on the following source: حصلنا على لقب أباظة من خلال سيدة شركسية

Here are the salient points on which consensus must be reached:

1. Does the source support the claim of Circassian origin?
2. Does this source support the claim of Circassian origin exclusively, without mention of other origin(s)? What source(s) support those origin(s)?
3. Does an origin need mentioned in the intro at all?
4. The early life section mentions Italian and Egyptian origin. How does Circassian need integrated there? (Remember, the introduction should summarize the body of the article per MOS:LEAD.)

I encourage editors to discuss matters related to this content and supporting sources here. —C.Fred (talk) 01:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

There is no dispute that Rushdy had a distant Circassian grandmother, the only problem is implying that that was his sole-origin or even his identity in the lead, when the man lived as an Italiano-Egyptian. Early Life sections are meant for stating his heritage and I surely agree that his Circassian grandmother should be mentioned in the early life section. Fragrant Peony (talk) 01:49, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for engaging in good faith. How do you feel about changing the lead to:

Rushdy Saiid Bughdadi Abaza (Egyptian Arabic: رشدي سعيد بغدادي أباظة) (3 August 1926 – 27 July 1980) was an Egyptian film and television actor. He was considered one of the most charming actors in the Egyptian film industry. He died of brain cancer at the age of 53.

And changing the first paragraph of the Family section to:

Rushdy Abaza was born in Sharqia, Egypt, to an Italian mother, Teresa Luigi, and an Egyptian father, Said Abaza, who belonged to one of Egypt's most well-known families, the Circassian-origin Abaza family. Rushdy attended school at Collège Saint Marc in Alexandria.

Brusquedandelion (talk) 01:55, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. I fully agree that all his full-heritage should be mentioned in his early life section, but actually the Abaza family is only of maternal Circassian origin, all their paternal side is Arab, and the video of his relative you are putting here literally states that they have absolutely nothing to do with Circassians except for a distant grandmother, so it is an Egyptian family of maternal-Circassian origin. Fragrant Peony (talk) 02:08, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Also, please note that independent of the disagreement re: his ancestry, as it stands right now, the article, with your edits, has a grammatically incorrect lead: the first sentence needs to be broken up into two sentences, as I suggest in the edit above. Brusquedandelion (talk) 01:57, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your intervention and for helping get us back on track.

Regarding the four points you mention,

1. I believe it does. This fact is also well documented at Abaza family.

2. No, and I do not believe it to be correct that he was exclusively Circassian. I believe the edits I propose below correctly capture all the facts of his ethnic origin.

3. I feel there is ample precedent for discussing origin as mentioned above. However, I am open to debating this point.

4. Right now, the early life section mentions Abaza family but does not link to it. I believe linking to the Abaza family page while mentioning the Circassian background in the lead would be satisfactory. However, I am open to other suggestions as to how to capture these facts.

Please let me know what you think, Fragrant Peony.

My first suggestion would be to modify the lead as follows:

Rushdy Saiid Bughdadi Abaza (Egyptian Arabic: رشدي سعيد بغدادي أباظة) (3 August 1926 – 27 July 1980) was an Egyptian film and television actor of mixed Arab, Italian, and Circassian origin. He was considered one of the most charming actors in the Egyptian film industry. He died of brain cancer at the age of 53.

My second suggestion is to edit the lead to the following:

Rushdy Saiid Bughdadi Abaza (Egyptian Arabic: رشدي سعيد بغدادي أباظة) (3 August 1926 – 27 July 1980) was an Egyptian film and television actor and member of the Circassian-origin Abaza family. He was considered one of the most charming actors in the Egyptian film industry. He died of brain cancer at the age of 53.

Finally, I feel the page should be added to Category:Egyptian people of Circassian descent.

Please let me know what you think of these suggestions. Brusquedandelion (talk) 01:51, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Third opinion Is there a source for the Circassian statement? Is there a source for the "most charming" statement? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 03:17, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

@Fragrant Peony are you able to provide a cite for the latter claim as requested by Pyrrho the Skipper? I was unable to surface one. Happy to include this, just need a source. Otherwise, suggestions for alternate wording?

Re: the Circassian statement, yes, it is the citation I have given above, an interview in which they mention a Circassian grandmother. Brusquedandelion (talk) 00:57, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

The "Circassian origin" statement does not seem due, based on the source. The heritage of one's maternal grandmother does not denote one's origin, especially for the purposes of Wikipedia. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 02:59, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

@Pyrrho the Skipper: could you clarify which established Wikipedia guidelines you are relying on to arrive at that conclusion? The individual in question is a member of the Abaza family, whose Circassian-Abkhazian Origins are well documented including at their wiki page, and that page itself refers to the family as being of Abkhazian origin despite most members being even more distantly connected to their Circassian ancestry than Rushdy was. Brusquedandelion (talk) 11:05, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Looking at the other Wiki articles and elsewhere on the web, it seems as though Abazians are ethnically related to Abkhazians, who are ethnically or linguistically related to Circassians, but distinct. Most sources call Rushdy Abaza Egyptian, so why not just leave it as that? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 16:08, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

The source we have on this topic says they are of "Circassian" origin (in Arabic, شركسية, "sharkasia"), not Abkhaz or Abazian origin. Brusquedandelion (talk) 23:54, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

References