Talk:Russian tradition of the Knights Hospitaller
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Russian tradition of the Knights Hospitallers
this page is taken from http://www2.prestel.co.uk/church/oosj/rgporg.htm
and was placed in the ENCYCLOPEDIA WIKIPEDIA by the Author, Dr Michael Foster, and therefore there is no copyright infringement!
Ta!
Then, Dr Foster, you can present your case in Wikipedia:Possible copyright infringements (notice the possible) in the section of the refered article. I hope you understand our precautions. Best regards, Muriel Victoria 13:29, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- You can also use Wikipedia:How does one edit a page and our manual of style to edit the article according to the wikipedia standards. The only thing you have to do to avoid the copyvio info is refrase the article, perhaps add other infos? It shouldnt be that hard, sinice you wrote it. Cheers, Muriel Victoria 15:03, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Will revisit the article after looking at it offline - then upload changes. Thanks for tha advice. MF 22:21 21 Nov 2003.
I replaced the banner notice for now. MF, could you possible make it clearer that it's not a copy violation, noting on the source web site that you're the same guy as MF would be more than sufficient. Thanks. Daniel Quinlan 22:47, Nov 21, 2003 (UTC)
Sources
editPart of article about 19. and 20. century is lacking sources, specially about "Priory of Dacia". General reference is not sufficient, subject is controversial and need more scholar work. Yopie 07:19, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The article now reveals the origins and provides further information. The web page also now attributes authorship – Dr Michael Foster (Osjknights) Also my user user notes give my name.
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Perhaps the name of the article should be changed to Knights Hospitaller (Russian tradition of the)? Glenlarson 21:08, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
The end of the Union in 1975.
The Incorporation of the "Union" ended legally in 1975, and the Regulations under which the Union was registered (Foreign Association) was abolished, bringing a definite end to the legal existence, leaving the Priory of Dacia as the only legal part. Thus there was no dormancy. Some original members survived into the 21st Century. The decrees allowing Foreign Associations in France were as follows; 12 April 1939, 1st June 1939, and 1st September 1939. These have all been repealed. That the Union was registered as a Foreign Association in France is given in; Taube, Professor Baron Michel Alexsandrovitch, de. L'Empereur Paul I de Russie, Grand Maître de l'Ordre de Malte, et son Grand Prieuré Russe, Paris 1955, pages 63-64.
Hereditary Commanders of the Russian tradition.
Reference to hereditary commanders is frequently made but often without a proper understanding. There is no mystique about Hereditary Commanders. The Hereditary Commanderies were more accurately "Ancestral" or "Family" Commanderies. Estates had been gifted to the Order to procure the income to sustain the Commanderies, and in return the family head or nominated successor held the Commandery.
Those favoured by Paul I, had been given beneficed Commanderies, and others were encouraged to use their wealth to create their own Commanderies - it is these which were known as Family or Ancestral Commanderies. The former were abolished in 1810 (Ukase 24.134. of 1810), and their holders were given other posts, and the estates of the latter were handed back to the families provided a redemption payment was made (Ukase 24.882. of 1811). By courtesy the term "Hereditary Commander" was used by those who had gained confirmation from the Emperor to wear the Cross of the Order. Those who wore the Order still came under the due regulations, which were administered by the Chancellor to all the Russian Orders. This fact is confirmed in Loumyer, J. F. Nicholas, Ordres de Chevalerie et Marques d'Honneur, Brussels 1844.
Russian Hereditary Commanders, must be confirmed as such under the Russian Laws which gave birth to that category of membership; Ukase 19.044. of 1799. This specifies inter alia "5 years of seniority in the Order and 2 years of seniority of military service". In other words 5 years in belonging to the Order, and 2 years military service. The Family Commanders in the days of the Empire and into exile, appear as far as can be established, to be qualified in both.
Even where the candidate is qualified, he must demonstrate that he is the “present representative elder of the masculine posterity of its first beneficiary”; Taube ibid, page 50.
The whole issue concerning the difficulties of descendants to qualify will lie behind Grand Duke Vladimir’s insistence of using the title of “Union of Descendants of Hereditary Commanders & etc”, placing the emphasis on descendants of Hereditary Commanders, but then this brings additional problems, as many Russian Nobles can claim this qualification, due to the intermarriage of Russian Nobles to those families which held ancestral commanderies. Under Grand Duke Vladimir, admittance to the “Union” was regulated. In terms of establishing which group represents the true legal tradition, this must be traced from the Paris group of 1928-1975.
Sources
editFor concerned editors WP:SOURCE: "All material in Wikipedia articles must be attributable to a reliable published source." this mean, that unpublished materials in archive are not good for article.--Yopie (talk) 14:57, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Again, according to WP:RELIABLE "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources,..". Documents in archive are not published and cannot be used as sources. Understand?--Yopie (talk) 05:47, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
Attn Vandals
editStop posting the "Self Styled Order" tag to this article. Only the false copies of the Russian Tradition of the Knights Hospitaller are self styled. Emperor Paul was elected by the knights and was the Grand Master in fact. In addition, the records that Rome gladly took money from the Russian knights is ample proof that the Russian Tradition was not self styled. Stop with the tag already - you are making yourself look childish and foolish. Kasgan (talk) 00:29, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
POV issues
editFrom the article:
According to "An Official Statement from the Chancellery of the Head of the Russian Imperial House" the Orthodox Grand Priory of Russia, were entirely abolished in 1817 by Emperor Alexander I, and there has not been any legitimate restoration. All so-called “Orthodox” area kind of childish game and a source of fraud. The philanthropic slogans of such organizations serve only as a cover for harmful activities.
Judging by this article, the "Russian Imperial House" mentioned here is some kind of fringe organization, and not actually the imperial house of Russia. We should attribute it as "the self-styled Russian Imperial House" or something else that does not imply it has external recognition. We also can't repeat their POV about "fraud" and "childish games" in Wikipedia's own voice; it needs quotation marks.
The "Russian Tradition of the Knights Hospitaller" is not recognised by the Alliance of the Orders of Saint John of Jerusalem or the Sovereign Military Order of Malta.
I do not see where the source supports this statement. KateWishing (talk) 21:40, 20 February 2015 (UTC
- Maria Vladimirovna, Grand Duchess of Russia is generally accepted pretendent to the Empire and she say about fraud and childish games.. And where you see, that Alliance accepted fringe Russian "brothers"? Ball is on your side. --Yopie (talk) 00:07, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- No. Per WP:RS, you have the burden to provide a reliable source, not me (since I made no claim). Per WP:ASSERT, we cannot state opinions as facts. KateWishing (talk) 00:22, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- [1] in the article HISTORY OF MEMBER ORDERS OF THE ALLIANCE never cite any of"Russian connnection organisation" as member. Because per WP:Burden I cannot prove negative fact, you must prove, that the Alliance recognises Russian hereditary commanderies.--Yopie (talk) 13:56, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- I never claimed that the Alliance recognized anyone. We need a source to comment on that either way. WP:BURDEN does not say you can insert a "negative fact" without a source supporting it; it says the opposite. You have also ignored the WP:ASSERT issues and inappropriate attribution of a fringe pretender organization as the "Official Statement from the Chancellery of the Head of the Russian Imperial House". KateWishing (talk) 14:06, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
3O Response: declined: I had to remove this post from the page due to lack of thorough discussion per the instructions. Unless both parties present their sides properly, a 3O cannot be provided. Feel free to post again later. Sincerely, Ugog Nizdast (talk) 09:58, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- FYI I restored the version prior to the addition of the block of text under discussion. It looks like the added content as well as the rewording are both being contested. Without opining on it myself, I'd suggest that per WP:BRD everybody hold off on re-adding either version before coming to some kind of consensus as to the wording here first. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 00:39, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
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Move discussion in progress
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