Talk:SS Choctaw

Pre-FAC comments

These are liable to arrive erratically and in haphazard order.

• The cross section image:

• Is very small.
• Creates an MOS:SANDWICH
• Don't use a.k.a. Acronyms need to be given in full at first use.
• MOS:NOFORCELINK: "as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links." So "monitor", "semi-whaleback" and "straight-back" don't really work.

• The lead image seems to me to have too long a caption. (If it were me, which it isn't, I wouldn't have a caption at all.) Eg, why are we told the artist's birth and death dates? Do we need to be told that it is a painting?
• The Wahcondah image is very small. As are the following two images. Why are they not the same size as the lead image?
• The lead image needs a US PD tag.
• Cites 31 and 45 have hyphens in the page ranges which should be en dashes.
• Why do Greenwood and Stonehouse not have publisher locations?

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:58, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

There seems to be very little on her 21 year Service history. There are a number of individual incidents, but we gain no feel as to her day-to-day, month-to-month activities. While I do not think it a very good article, I took SB Centaur to GA a few years ago and believe that the mix, in approximate chronological order, conveys information on typical cargos, sailing qualities, personnel, ports called at, unusual incidents and anecdotes in a readable way. Note also the lengthy initial background on Thames sailing barges in general. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:06, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

• Why does NOAA(1) (2017) have "history" with a lower case h? Government Printing Office (1903) and "report"? The Toronto Sun (2017) and "century" and "shipwrecks"? Etc. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:36, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: Sorted. I have also added a bit of history regarding the vessel's service. GreatLakesShips (talk) 19:20, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Background

To go to FAC the article needs, IMO, a decent length section on shipping in the Great Lakes. What was carried from where to where, in what volumes and value, what of this was increasing or decreasing and what was the state of the industry in general - in the five years or so before Choctaw was built and during her service. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:28, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: Aside from the IMO (which was introduced well after the Choctaw sank), I can do them, but it might take a while. GreatLakesShips (talk) 20:49, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Er, when I wrote "IMO", I meant 'in my opinion'. Take your time. Shout when you are ready for me to take another look. See if other merchant ships have passed FAC in the past 7 or 8 years and see what you can learn from them. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:54, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

My mistake. I know about a few articles. GreatLakesShips (talk) 21:13, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: Would you say this is alright? GreatLakesShips (talk) 20:10, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Background is starting to starting to look passable now. But "Service history" - I struggle to see an article on a ship getting through FAC when it says very little on what the ship actually did. One might expect this to be the largest section. More stuff here would be good, even if it veers a bit between the specific and the general. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:41, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: The problem with Choctaw (and indeed most lake freighters) is that she travelled between certain ports throughout her entire career, and beyond a few accidents, not much of her service history has been documented. I have however found information about the investigation into the collision, which I will ad. GreatLakesShips (talk) 15:49, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough. You say "She frequently ran between ..." If the sources will support it, then 'her regular route was' or 'with few exceptions she' or similar would help there.

"She frequently ran between Detroit, Escanaba, Marquette, Michigan and Cleveland, Ohio." The first incident mentioned is on Lake St. Clair which doesn't seem to be on this route. Is it known why she was there? Similarly, Pointe aux Pins seems to be well off this route. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:17, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: I have altered the sentence.

Vessels must pass through Lake St. Clair to get to Detroit and Cleveland. I got the location of Pointe Aux Pins wrong. The one I she grounded near is on Lake Superior. GreatLakesShips (talk) 16:38, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I would be inclined to put a one sentence summary of the first paragraph of Service history into the lead. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:25, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: All done. 18:53, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

OK. I am going to be away for a few days. I'll look it all over when I get back. When I do, would you like me to give it a copy edit? If "yes", would you prefer a light touch, or the all out pre-FAC variety? (Obviously in either case you can just revert anything you don't like.) Gog the Mild (talk) 10:47, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: Thank you very much. I would go for complete pre-FAC copyedit. GreatLakesShips (talk) 10:56, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Measurements

Why is the length listed as "266.9" feet when it is 266'9" according to the Shipwreck Site National Register of Historic Places Registration Form for the SS Choctaw? The same goes for the listed beam of "38.1" feet and Depth of "17.9" feet when according to the Registration Form the beam is 38'1" and the depth is 17'9". MrMadZombie (talk) 03:24, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

GreatLakesShips, I re-added this comment (at the end instead of the middle) because I think what the user is asking is why the beam is given as 266.9 feet (which would be 266 feet, 10.8 inches) instead of 266 feet 9 inches, or 266'9". That is, the decimal notation is not the same as the feet and inches notation. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:12, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: I didn't consider that. I think I was more irritated that he just posted it in the middle of the previous section. GreatLakesShips (talk) 15:47, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

I think it's a common mistake for a brand-new editor -- I think it was their first edit. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:52, 16 February 2022 (UTC)