Talk:Saanich

Primary topic issues

Re this reversion, WP:CSG#Places is very clear in such cases; the only possible secondary topic here is Saanich Peninsula, as the three municipalities are often referred to by Victorians as "Saanich" as a general locational term; as a proper name it is unique as a town name and so CSG applies, despite the ongoing challenge to PRIMARYTOPIC on related RMs, many of which have already been closed in favour of the towns. Because of the hostility towards me evinced on other RMs (including the ones closed in "my" favour) I will put off fielding an RM on this until consulting other Canadian editors on how to deal with such across-the-board and time-wasting (and rather systematic) opposition.Skookum1 (talk) 06:52, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Local testimony from an experienced editor should not be so automatically challenged as is become something of a syndrome; I've lived in many of these places....Esquimalt, Sooke, Chemainus, and many more are equivalent to this one and all moved to conform to CSG by consensus/RMs.Skookum1 (talk) 06:55, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus, not moved (non-admin closure) DavidLeighEllis (talk) 02:07, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

---

• Saanich → Saanich (disambiguation)
• Saanich, British Columbia → Saanich

– WP:CSG#Places mandate that unique town/municipality/community titles not have comma-province on them. The PRIMARYTOPIC query in the above justification for reverting my previous move of this title to Saanich (disambiguation) was groundless as google searches will easily demonstrate:

• this search for "Saanich" -"North Saanich" -"Saanichton" -"Central Saanich" -"Saanich people" -"Saanich tribe" -"Saanich language" -wiki yields 3,260,000 results
  • for ""District of Saanich" -wiki"" which is for the formal name of the municipality yields 57,100 results
  • a search for ""Saanich people" "Saanich tribe" -"Saanich, BC" -"North Saanich" -"Saanichton" -"Central Saanich" "Saanich language" -wiki" yields 6 results" Including the language and taking out the "tribe" usage yields 687 results.
  • Without "Saanich tribe" and without the language yields 3,300 results
  • a similar search for the language alone yields 4,040 results
  • a search for "Saanich people" "Saanich tribe" -"Saanich, BC" -"North Saanich" -"Saanichton" -"Central Saanich" "Saanich language" -wiki yields only one result
  • the only remotely close PRIMARYTOPIC to the standalone name for the town is the local colloquial usage in Greater Victoria to refer to the whole of the Saanich Peninsula, though people of that area do tend to distinguish between Saanich, Central Saanich and North Saanich. It is impossible to search for "Saanich Peninsula" without excluding the names of the other two municipalities, which must perforce be in any description of the peninsula. A search for it, excluding "wiki", yields 153,000 results which would also of course include references to the District of Saanich
• The GoogleNews search for ""Saanich" -"North Saanich" -"Saanichton" -"Central Saanich" -"Saanich people" -"Saanich tribe" -"Saanich language" -wiki" has 1,100 results
  • The Googlenews results for the same string, but with the minus/hyphen taken out before the two people names and the language, yields "about 0" results], as is also the case when "Saanich tribe" is taken out
  • on GN, there is one hit for "Saanich language"
• On Google Books, there are about 232 results for "-"North Saanich" -"Saanichton" -"Central Saanich" "Saanich people" -wiki", i.e. for the people excluding the two "FOO Saanich" municipalities and Saanichton
• on GB, the same parameters with "Saanich language" substituted for "Saanich people", there are 62 results
• on Google Scholar, there are 4,390 results with "saanich -"Saanich Inlet" -"Saanich Peninsula" -"Saanich map" -"Saanich Road" -"Saanich red raspberry"" as the parameters (Saanich Road, a map of Victoria and Saanich and the Saanich variety of red raspberry showed up, so I added them to the exclusions)
  • a Google Scholar search for "Saanich" excluding "Saanich people", "Saanich tribe", "Saanich language" yields 13,700 results
    • excluding "Saanich Inlet", "Saanich Peninsula", "North Saanich", "Central Saanich, Saanichton and "Saanich red raspberry" there are 13,700 results; some of those referring to the language as simply "Saanich" so it is impossible to exclude them unless maybe technical linguistic terms used in those papers are excluded
    • trying that, excluding "morphology", "phonology", "lexical" and "Saanich Indians", which I hadn't thought of to exclude or include in the above searches there are 3,630 results
    • also on GS, a search including all names for the people (people/tribe/Indians) and the language curiously produced no results at all
• Summary There may be others who know how to use googlesearches more effectively; it is impossible to search for the District of Saanich other than by that term of "Saanich BC", but I have yet to see any indication that alleged "global usage" in any way shape or form would mean the language or the people; unless all references from Canadian sources, and Saanich itself, are excluded - difficult without also excluding the language and the people. Perhaps another notion of PRIMARYTOPIC is in operation re the dispute above; it would save time and considerable wiki-energy if my correct move of Saanich to Saanich (disambiguation) were reverted as being groundless and Saanich, British Columbia moved to Saanich. WP:CSG#Places is very clear and many other RMs with disputatious PRIMARYTOPIC complaints have now gone through in favour of the town; a few remain but google results will be similar there, cf Talk:Bella Coola#Requested move and Talk:Lillooet, British Columbia#Requested move for examples; Comox looks like it will close without a similar time-consuming search for googleresults needing to take place.Skookum1 (talk) 06:05, 29 March 2014 (UTC) Skookum1 (talk) 06:10, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose – a term this ambiguous doesn't need to have a primarytopic claim. The natural disambiguation does a great job of making the title for the city precise enough to specify the topic of the article; why push back toward a more ambiguous title? Dicklyon (talk) 06:38, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
  • You have read and understood WP:CSG#Places I hope, and noted Chemainus, Sechelt and various others which are very similar precedents; the most common modern usage of "Saanich" is for the municipality, and secondarily for the peninsula; you will never find enough academic papers to support your claim that the people and the langauge are more of a primarytopic than the placename. This has been demonstrated and supported in other CSG-related RMs.Skookum1 (talk) 07:16, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
    • I would never make such a claim. Dicklyon (talk) 04:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
      • You did on Bella Coola, and others have made similar plaints on related RMs, even though they know nothing about the place and display open disdain for Canadian usages as not being part of "global usage", even though viewstats and searches prove them wrong. There is nothing ambiguous in primarytopic terms about "Saanich" except from those that insist it should be disambiguated to suit their agendas and "outsider" non-knowledge of the facts on the ground, and demonstrable on the web. Read Point 1 at WP:CSG#Places very carefully and take note of other allegedly "ambiguous" names which include those listed above as stand-alone town names. Nanaimo and Coquitlam are effectively no different; and Coquitlam is a similar municipality to Saanich, which is one of Victoria's largest suburbs.Skookum1 (talk) 04:32, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
• View statistics
  • PRIMARYTOPIC based on view stats is overwhelmingly on the side of the municipality:
    • "Saanich, British Columbia" had 2,848 views this month (March)
    • "Saanich people" had 326 views
    • "Saanich language" had 386 views
    • "Saanich dialect" had 395 views
    • "Saanich Peninsula" had 423 views
  • As I had indicated, the secondary primarytopic is the Peninsula, but none are anywhere near the results for the municipality.Skookum1 (talk) 08:46, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Comment on this close

One dissenting vote without a single cite or stat to back up its claims, against a slew of thorough googles and view stats, and this is "no consensus, not moved"?? This should have been relisted, or closed with respect to the obvious conclusions determined by the stats/googles. Yes, there is something very wrong in Wikipedia...but it ain't me.Skookum1 (talk) 08:30, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

But your proposal had zero support. I agree we could have waited longer or relisted. Dicklyon (talk) 16:16, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Zero support? Google stats and view stats aren't "support"? Your objection was specious and without substantiation, and posits the notion that disambiguated titles are equally PRIMARYTOPICs, which they are not. Your oppose vote has no support, not even for your own claims; the stats prove you wrong; the closer was in error; unless providing stats as expected is "TLDR" and one-line oppose votes based on unsubtantiated claims count more than actual evidence and "local expertise". Where are you located, anyway, Dicklyon? I have friends who live in Saanich, others live in North Saanich, though I don't know any WSANEC (which used to be the title of Saanich people), do you??Skookum1 (talk) 06:13, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I meant zero other editors supported your interpretation of the relation of guidelines to evidence. You continue to misinterpretation what I say as somehow about other primarytopic candidates, which is not the point at all. Dicklyon (talk) 06:20, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh really huh? Guidelines and evidence are what is relevant here, not interloping suppositions and unsubstantiated claims about allegedly-potential other primary topics. Google stats and view stats were asked for and adjudged accordingly on other RMs, that you maintain they are irrelevant and unsupported is hogwash. Floydian, CambridgeBayWeather and others have cited the same guidelines elsewhere, and it was Floydian who on Talk:Lillooet#Requested move addressed the view stats in answer to the habitual naysayers like yourself. Your "oppose" vote should have been ignored by the closer, the evidence should have been the call; your persistent and rather mindless opposition in all these cases counts as tendentious editing and is clearly disruptive in intent, and serves no useful purpose at all except to seek to subvert WP:CSG#Places.Skookum1 (talk) 07:00, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Saanich/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

stub mostly. stub plus a bit; has refs and there is a separate Saanich (linguistics) article --Skookum1 (6 May 06)

Last edited at 20:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 02:34, 5 May 2016 (UTC)