Talk:Saar Protectorate

Name

Shouldn't this page be Saar (1947-1956)? Given that it became part of Germany on January 1, 1957.

Or maybe a better name is Saar (French protectorate) or Saarland (French protectorate), without using the years of existence. Chanheigeorge 01:30, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

1952 Elections

The statistics of the 1952 elections where pro reunification parties were barred would be a lot more meaningful if the percentage of voters who actually took part was given. Has anyone been able to dig them up?Stor stark7 18:35, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Contradictions

This article contradicts with Saarland on the subject of currency used during and just after the protectorate. TheGrappler 16:42, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I changed the date when Germany's Deutsche Mark became Saarland's currency. According to a German-speaking description of Saarland's history, Saarland returned to Germany (Federal Republic of Germany, that is) on January 1, 1959, still using French Franc as its currency; Germany's Deutsche Mark replaced it on July 6, 1959. The text says: Am 6. Juli 1959 folgte die wirtschaftliche Rückgliederung aus dem französischen in den deutschen Wirtschaftsraum, bei der u.a. in einem Währungsumtausch der Franken durch die Mark ersetzt wurde.

Saar_franc also gives some information about the currencies used in Saar / Saarland. Thomasnimmesgern 02:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

European flag

From the article:

The conflict between France and Germany over control of the Saarland led to the European flag being given 12 stars instead of the originally proposed 15.

How/why? We need more of an explanation. I don't understand how this one territory would be the difference between 12 and 15 stars. Funnyhat 19:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the Twelve Stars of the European Flag came from Revelation 12.1 via the Statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Strasbourge Cathedral. 12 is one of the special numbers in the Jewish Christian Tradition, 12 Tribes of Isreal and 12 Apostles, and is likely to have been made so because there are 12 complete Calendar Moons to the Solar Year. It is the United States Flag which gains stars when a new state is added. I agree that there seems to be no logic in the Saarland being responsible for the twelve stars instead of fifteen. peter.hawkins@orange.fr —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.214.53.252 (talk) 21:07, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

From Flag of Europe: The number of stars on the flag is fixed at 12, and is not related to the number of member states of the EU. This is because it originally was the flag of the Council of Europe, and does not have a relationship with the EU.[12] In 1953, the Council of Europe had 15 members; it was proposed that the future flag should have one star for each member, and would not change based on future members. West Germany objected to this as one of the members was the disputed area of Saarland, and to have its own star would imply sovereignty for the region.[13] Twelve was eventually adopted as a number with no political connotations and as a symbol of perfection and completeness[12] because of the ubiquity of the number for groups in European cultures and traditions. Etm157 (talk) 09:21, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Other

What does "strongly ethnically German" mean? Strongly as compared to what? To other German states? Or to France? Anyways, the term should be clarified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adlerauge24 (talk • contribs) 19:34, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

It's probably just someone's pov pushing. I just removed the unnecessary adjective. Volunteer Marek  20:17, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Deficient map

The current map is bordering on useless, it being virtually impossible to spot the region in question. Nick Cooper (talk) 18:58, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

This article seriously needs a clear map showing the actual borders of the protectorate and its main cities in the time described. werldwayd (talk) 13:05, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I logged on here to say that.Czolgolz (talk) 17:38, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Latest New version Saar Protectorate Patriotic Song (1945–1957) - "Land der Saar" URL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyEX0I7Xs9w Thanks. Andre Farfan (talk) 11:19, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Time

Saarland only officially became a French protectorate with the promulgation of its constitution on December 15, 1947. Hammermann75 (talk) 04:32, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Was it a de facto protectorate before that? Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:40, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

It was de facto separated in 1946 but it wasn't a protectorate. Hammermann75 (talk) 04:47, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

The article seems to say so: On 16 February 1946, France disentangled the Saar from the Allied zones of occupation and established the separate Saar Protectorate... Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:42, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

The problem was that Saarland was then just a French customs territory. Hammermann75 (talk) 04:44, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a citation from a reliable source that says that Saar was not a protectorate until the institution of its constitution? It very much appears to me that it was a de facto protectorate from the time the French declared it as such. They certainly behaved as if it were - governments generally don't throw people out of a mere "customs territory." And in regard to that, do you have a citation from a reliable source which says that it was a customs territory and not a protectorate? Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:48, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

"A protectorate, in the context of international relations, is a state that is under protection by another state for defence against aggression and other violations of law", so for you was the Saarland a state (even de facto) in 1946? Hammermann75 (talk) 04:52, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Other language versions, including German, say 1947. Hammermann75 (talk) 04:55, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Again, what are your citations from reliable sources to support your contentions? You're new, so you may not be aware that all information added to Wikipedia must be verifiable, and unsourced information may be removed at any time -- and may not be restored unless accompanied by a citation from a reliable source. I suggest you read these policies, and the other onces which I have made you aware of on your talk page. I think one of the reasons you have been able to rack up 1,000 edits in a mere week is that you have not been citing sources, which takes time and effort. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:00, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

BTW, WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:01, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

So do you have a source to prove it was a protectorate on February 16, 1946? You rely on the previous version; not as attached to Wikipedia as you are and the dogmatism and lack of judgment here makes Wikipedia contain false information..., and I don't want to argue as useless and costly here as in that situation, bye. Hammermann75 (talk) 05:24, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

It is not "dogmatism" to insist that Wikipedia policies be followed. The WP:ONUS to change the article's WP:STATUSQUO is on you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:21, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Still a deficient map

It's improved from the 2011 map (Europe with the Saar as a dot), but the map that is used in 2023 is not ideal. The French occupied zone is much more prominent, both in size and colour, and could be mistaken as being the Saar itself, the article topic.

File:Deutschland Besatzungszonen 8 Jun 1947 - 22 Apr 1949 franzoesisch.svg

That map, without a key, appears in internet searches and so on, and will mislead some users as to the Saar's size. The French zone is certainly relevant here, and that map should be used to display it, but further down in the article.

The best for the Infobox would be a map where the Saar location is unmistakeable - like this one, but with historical borders not modern ones:

File:Locator map Saarland in Germany.svg

But such a map doesn't exist on Wikipedia yet. I'm happy to make one but may take a while. The other languages' Wikis, if you look there, have used a couple of multi-coloured maps of post-war Germany, which aren't bad, but again don't clearly reflect the topic of this article.

1RightSider (talk) 11:41, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Ah, here we are: I'll be happy to base the map upon this blank Germany map of the 1947-1949 boundaries. Or someone else can, if wanted.

File:Germany location map 8 Jun 1947 - 22 Apr 1949.svg

1RightSider (talk) 00:33, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

New map: Have added this one to Wikimedia Commons and the infobox, based on TUBS's extensive maps from the era -- this should be an improvement for the introduction, at least, and give more clarity as to the location and geography of the Protectorate circa 1947.

File:Saar Protectorate Germany location map 8 Jun 1947 - 22 Apr 1949.png

1RightSider (talk) 09:58, 30 October 2023 (UTC)