Talk:Saddle tramp

Requested move 8 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved Saddle tramp (person) to Saddle tramp and Saddle tramp to Saddle Tramp. (closed by non-admin page mover) C F A 💬 16:58, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

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• Saddle tramp → Saddle tramp (disambiguation)
• Saddle tramp (person) → Saddle tramp

– Created main space page for Saddle tramp. Name previously redirected to Saddle tramp (disambiguation) page. The title Saddle tramp should direct to this page, not the disambiguation page. There is a header link at the top of this page. Maineartists (talk) 14:40, 8 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 23:48, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nomination. This article appears to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Wikishovel (talk) 15:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Article is little more than a WP:DICDEF, and no evidence that this page would exceed the derived usage in common usage or significance.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:19, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment. I am not sure this should be a discussion as to whether or not the page should exist; but whether it should be given the direct main space as the PRIMARYTOPIC name over the disambiguation page. The article itself is a start class. It should, and will, be expanded over time. Similar to Tramp, the article is about the person, with a link to the disambiguation page. Examples of Saddle Tramps are given on the article page, which is Encyclopedic not Dictionary: Mesannie Wilkins, Sea G Ryder. I am sure that there are others, along with additional information and history. I simply started it due to the fact when creating the article "Mesannie Wilkins", there was no link for "Saddle tramp" (except the disambiguation page - which described it as a "Nomadic cowboy" - which is incorrect). Lastly, the very fact that when one types in "Saddle tramp" at Wikipedia, it takes you to a disambiguation page with a one-line definition of the term; making WP, in fact, a Dictionary. Thanks. Maineartists (talk) 20:37, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Clear primary topic per long-term significance. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:28, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Amakuru. There are eleven entries listed upon the Saddle tramp disambiguation page, with no indication that the six-sentence stub delineating Saddle tramp (person) trumps the combined notability of the remaining ten entries. It may be also noted that other than the putative WP:PRIMARYTOPIC — Saddle tramp (person) — as well as the country band The Saddletramps, all the other entries use an uppercase "T", thus suggesting that Saddle tramp would more intuitively redirect to Saddle Tramp, rather than Saddle Tramp redirecting, as it currently does, to Saddle tramp. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:32, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment Without Saddle tramp (person), none of the other eleven entries could or would exist. Thus, giving complete reason for PRIMARYTOPIC. Saddle Tramp (film) is about Saddle Tramps, Saddle Tramp (song by Marty Robbins) is about a Saddle Tramp, Saddle Tramps (School Organization) is defined by what a Saddle Tramp is. The correct page assignment is to have the PRIMARYTOPIC receive the direct link with a header for the disambiguation page. Dismissing the page by calling it a "six-sentence stub" is without warrant since there are articles here at WP that are only 1 sentence long. A stub is: "an article that, although lacking the breadth of coverage expected from an encyclopedia, provides some useful information and is capable of expansion." It has the same potential as Tramp. In regards to: capitalization; this does not carry any merit. WP does not encourage capitalization of the second word when it is not a title but a term. I merely wrote "tramp" because the disambiguation page did not capitalize it. Just because an Album (title) has both words capitalized, does not mean it carries more weight. The title for this article should actually be Saddle Tramp. Maineartists (talk) 12:27, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

NOTE Article has been expanded; and will continue as such due to its content page. Still remains WP: PRIMARYTOPIC. Maineartists (talk) 16:37, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. As an alternative option to my "oppose" vote, above, I would support one of the two proposed moves: Saddle tramp (person) → Saddle tramp, but continue to oppose pairing it with Saddle tramp → Saddle tramp (disambiguation) and, instead, would support pairing it with the disambiguation page move: Saddle tramp → Saddle Tramp, which would be analogous with the oft-cited example of Red meat paired with the Red Meat dab page. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:16, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I think I would also agree to this; since the term itself: saddle tramp is not and should not be capitalized. Only when it is used in a title - film, book, etc - (i.e. Eleven entries). So if I am understanding you correctly, this page would be Saddle tramp and the disambiguation page would be Saddle Tramp; which would include the titles that use the capitalization. Yes? I do not wish to reinterpret your alternative option. Thanks for this, by the way. Maineartists (talk) 00:36, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

You're welcome and, yes, you are understanding me correctly. Perhaps this option would be also acceptable to Wikishovel, Amakuru and Necrothesp. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:07, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds reasonable to me too. Wikishovel (talk) 05:38, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Ditto, that would be acceptable. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 10:32, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I would have no problem with capitalising the disambiguation page, but only as Saddle Tramp (disambiguation). Given that a single capital letter is no disambiguation at all. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:32, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

So that I'm on the same page as everyone commenting / voting here; might you explain further, Necrothesp? I'm not sure I'm understanding you fully. Thanks. Maineartists (talk) 10:59, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Move Saddle tramp (person) → Saddle tramp and Saddle tramp to Saddle Tramp (disambiguation). Sorry, I thought that was pretty clear. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:01, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Maineartists (talk) 12:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. Lowercase primary topics paired with uppercase dab pages that do not use the parenthetical qualifier "(disambiguation)", such as Red meat / Red Meat, Friendly fire / Friendly Fire, Police academy / Police Academy, Escape velocity / Escape Velocity, Witch doctor / Witch Doctor, Union station / Union Station, Brand new / Brand New, Cigarette girl / Cigarette Girl, Significant other / Significant Other, Total war / Total War or the proposal at hand, Saddle tramp / Saddle Tramp, prompted the notion to posit another such pairing, Home improvement / Home Improvement at Talk:Home improvement (disambiguation)#Requested move 26 July 2024. Occasionally, the uppercase dab page header does use the qualifier "(disambiguation)", but only when one among the uppercase entries is a distinctive primary topic, such as Iron maiden / Iron Maiden / Iron Maiden (disambiguation). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:38, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose – no primarytopic, and disambiguation is better than relying on small diffs in most cases. Dicklyon (talk) 03:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• COMMENT You provided no reasoning for "no primarytopic". The definition at WP is exactly the definition found at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Every topic on the disambiguation page stems from the term. As I wrote above, there would be no other topic without the Primary Topic. We've aleady established this in the discussion. You cannot have a film about a Saddle Tramp without its primary topic: Saddle Tramp. You cannot have an organization based on "traveling men who would come to a farm for a brief time, fix up some things and move on" without its primary topic. You cannot have a song about a "saddle tramp" without its primary topic.

  That's like arguing that we shouldn't have the disambig page at Trump because everything derives from Trump (card games). I see no definition or criterion at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC the corresponds to what you're claiming it says. Dicklyon (talk) 19:27, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

??? That is not similar at all; and no one here is arguing that. Simply saying: "I see no definition or criterion at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC the (sic) corresponds to what you're claiming it says" is not in anyway a viable defense. All one has to do is search for similar listings at WP to see the exact parallels for long-term usage and significance and how they are listed using WP:PRIMARYTOPIC: i.e. Cowboy - you could not have any film, television, music, groups, sport teams, etc without first having cowboy. Luckily, with Saddle Tramp it is much more straightforward with less disambiguation listings. But still the same principle. Exact, in fact. Maineartists (talk) 22:30, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

You should not have changed the disambiguation page from defining the word to listing it as a "normal format" page. By "removing" the definition and placing the page which states that very definition into the list, you have only supported the claim that it is the "primary topic": a saddle tramp is a person who wanders from place to place on horseback. Until this discussion is over, it should remain as it was. Please refer to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and glean your argument to support your opposition. Thank you. Maineartists (talk) 14:53, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• The format you had there would be appropriate if it is determined to be a primarytopic, i.e. if the proposed move succeeds. But not until. Dicklyon (talk) 19:17, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay. For now. Maineartists (talk) 22:30, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

CONSENSUS as of August 17, 2024. Support with modifications proposed by Roman Spinner: "pairing it with the disambiguation page move: Saddle tramp → Saddle Tramp, which would be analogous with the oft-cited example of Red meat paired with the Red Meat dab page". Editors: Wikishovel, Amakuru & Necrothesp (along with original nominator Maineartists) all Support this modification move. One Oppose by Dicklyon. That is FIVE (5) to ONE (1) for consensus.

Can this request finally be closed and the proposed moved by Roman Spinner be administered? Thank you. Maineartists (talk) 15:43, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

"Five to one" is not really true because Necrothesp only supported moving Saddle tramp to Saddle Tramp (disambiguation), but there is still consensus either way. In the future, instead of asking at the Teahouse, consider making a request at WP:RFCLOSE. C F A 💬 16:54, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.