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Safer Sephiroth definitely has six white wings and one black/purple one which does give credence to the notion that he is somewhere in between a Seraph and the next level of angelic beings. That's my take on it, and the picture I posted gives this theory some credence.--IdoAlphaOmega 20:38, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
- I believe that Square wanted to make the character look impressive and godly within the established kabbalistic motifs. They did. I don't see any profound symbolism in safer sephiroth's design. If they intended it to be a seraph, they screwed up the name. If they didn't, they were obviously influenced by seraphim aesthetically. - JustSomeKid
- Well, let's take a look at Sephiroth's goals of attaining godhood. Beneath God himself you have the Seraphim, ... and however the rest of the rank of angels goes. However, one angel, Metatron has 36 wings and is valued by God even above his seraphim. What's important is that the higher the order of angels, the more wings. I think it's a valid way to look at the situation and there has been no word from Square on the matter thus far.--IdoAlphaOmega 04:13, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
- If more is better, how can one breach infinity (Godhood?). Even when taking into account the seeming finitude of God in the pentateuch, one can't skirt the fact little is said in the Tanakh about angels, and therefore nothing canonically can be established. Late-Jewish and Christian attempts to create choirs was a product of mental masturbation and egocentrism of the formulators. Safer Sephiroth's halos suggest purity as well as power, and he isn't pure. Angelic wings suggest divinity, but his inferior defeated him. Anyone reading more into Sephiorth's appearance (other than he looks strong) is practicing unevidenced speculation, that when touted as fact, is delusion. -JustSomeKid
Imo there are too many factors that lead to a good hypothesis when it comes to the look and meaning of sephiroth in the game. justsomekid, you could very well be right and there could be absolutely no meaning, but your probably wrong, look at all the final fantasy games and there bosses and you'll see that each character has a reason for there style (within reason) and sephiroth is one of the more complicated characters in the whole series. There are a lot of connections that can be made to biblical sources which suggest a lot of reason went into the characters and there different appearences in the game. I dont think all that fancy talk really argues much except the last line.
- Fancy talk? I'll put it more generally then. This article is banal because it attempts to see more into something than is actually there. It's fluff. There are elements to Safer Sephiroth's appearance (halos, for instance) that are misleading. They suggest power, but they also suggest what Sephiroth isn't. If you knew anything about the things the Final Fantasy games allude to in the naming of its creatures, you would know that these references are very shallow and dissimilar to what they were inspired from. In light of these inconsistencies and idiosyncrasies, it is fallacious to read more into something than what is necessary. JustSomeKid
- Unfortunately, your interpretation of the situation at hand fails to take into account the fact that there are many Biblical, Kabbalic, and other allusions found all over - some quite archaic and convoluted. Are you going to argue now that any theory is unsound because it "can't possibly be that way"? The character designer's and storywriter interpret religious writings and documents as they see fit.--IdoAlphaOmega 21:15, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- There are many references, but they are superficial and sometimes convoluted (e.g. Midgar Zolom, the Midgard Serpent, Jormungand). They have little to no bearing with their namesakes, and unless you profess to read people's minds regarding the subject, all we can settle with is what is self-evident. Ever heard of Occam's Razor? There's quite a difference between "can't possibly" and "we can't reasonably infer based on the available data". JustSomeKid
- Ockham's Razor only works when investigating natually ocurring phenomena not purposely convoluted creations of the imagination. The possibility that gaining an extra wing puts Sephiroth above and beyond the realm of Seraphim (by someone's convoluted imagination) exists because of the mere possibility that someone could have thought it up against which no argument exists. I do not profess to "read minds" or know what they were thinking, only saying that such a situation could exist, and, with the pieces given to us, the possibility to put them together as I have laid out also exists. Furthermore, it is more plausible that it is thus because of the Game Xenogears and its reference to Seraphim, Thrones, Domini (highest level of angels), and Cherubs (Kelvenia is a mistranslation). Furthermore, there is a good chance that the development Final Fantasy VII was influenced by Neon Genesis Evangelion as Xenogears's clearly was. This also coincides with Sephiroth's plan of becoming a god (ultimately through the absorbtion of all living things... sound familiar? the same thing happened in Evangelion) would put him above the angels, Seraphs included.--IdoAlphaOmega 06:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
- Occam's razor is used for induction and deduction in general (William was a logician). Otherwise, it'd be useless. What this article is trying to put together (deduct and induct) is any symbolism concerning Sephiroth's appearance beyond aesthetics. How doesn't it apply? When you said: [the possibility exists because] someone could have thought it up against which no argument exists. This is not true. I've already argued against it. Invoking Pentateuch-era Judaism, angels varied so much as to render it a moot point at the very best. At worst, it's wrong because breaching godhood (Sephiroth's goal) is mathematically impossible (it is this era which Kabbalism came about). If you're going to appeal to illogic of human imagination, go ahead, but until tenuously illogical nonsense is found to agree with Sakaguchi's illogical nonsense, there isn't a leg worth standing on. If you want to appeal to other games, there's a lot of superficiality in Final Fantasy names. JustSomeKid
- But you're forgetting that the concept of Sephiroth achieving godhood doesn't rely on the "mathematical impossibility of breaching infinity" (which is a joke argument on your part because this is a fantasy game). Wow... they can bend ethereal rules? Didn't you know that? The FF world isn't entirely on one scholastic though or the improbability of math and physics. Based on the mechanics of the game itself and the ethereal building blocks set up throughout the story of FFVII, it is probable that Sephiroth can attain godhood because it is a work of fiction. The way it is set up, he does have one more wing than Seraphs do. Based on the game, he is attempting to achieve godhood and would achieve it save for the actions of the characters. Bringing up what someone may or may not have written many years ago in an attempt to explain things they could not see is utterly irrelevant in discussing the intentions of somebody deciding upon Sephiroth's intentions. To this, you have provided no argument.--IdoAlphaOmega 19:23, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
- We aren't discussing Sephiroth's intentions, only his appearance and any symbolism in it. Sephiroth certainly appeared powerful, but he was no God despite his intentions. The idea that symbolism lies in his wing count is extraneous, and a certain tool of logic says cut out the extraneous. Relying on "it's only a game" only bolsters my assertion that any similarities found in that game are vapid and superficial. Hebrew weren't inept mathematicians, y'know. What with gematria, Kabbala, etc. As this article notes, even his name connotes the mathematical. Way to shift the goalposts.JustSomeKid
To be honost, arent u doing the same thing that you are accusing us of doing kid, you are assuming the writers intentions and by that circumstance your arguement is also flawed, unless you have the writers actual wording on the topic you can only hypothesize about the possibility of symbolism. Look, im sure u have seen the matrix movies, symbolism throughout, which the writers CLEARLY put in there for more than visual appeal. Going by that same mind set, are u saying that the writers of final fantasy isnt capable of the intelligence needed to put actual depth into the meaning of there characters, no symbolism, since FF7 was one of the most important games of my generation of gaming I dont think the writer would randomize it to make people say oooh and ahhh, otherwise he'd have put lots of explosions and stuff like that instead of an angel in the clouds with very specific 'coincidences' as u have basicaly put it. If you can prove that these things are not intended then do so, if not then stop trying to disprove it.PS: (its just a video game ;P) -Tik
- I'm just argumentative. This article is pretty banal, but since it states little as fact there's little to edit out. All I'm assuming is that he's supposed to be strong, whereas others have to accept a lot more assertions. This is a fundamental flaw. I hereforward desist since Wiki's no message board. JustSomeKid
haha well i think we all have our argumentative sides, esp on Wiki, even more when it comes to games with lots fanboys like Final Fantasy and Halo, remember the ff7 character list? that was a disaster. anyways trying to prove a point is hard to do even when speculation is all we have to go on. maybe one of us will be able to get a response from the writer and confirm all this for us.-Tik
- Maybe we'll know more with the release of the "Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega" strategy guide, a new official guide to the game who will go beyond already existing guides, as it will include complete gameplay information, character's commentaries and interview with the staff as well as other goodies. – DarkEvil 21:05, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
This article is no longer live and is a redirect. Please continue this talk over at Talk:Sephiroth (Final Fantasy VII)