Talk:Sahaja Yoga/Archive 8

Self published references

Greetings all. I would like to include information from some of the official Sahaja Yoga publications in order to 'round out' the existing paragraphs and improve the structure to be more informative. I will stay objective by attributing statements to the sources. Must I put an inline citation next to every new sentence or can I simply put the publications into a new Bibliography section? At the moment this article is defensively tagged with references which make the reading a bit stilted. I've noticed other articles are written in a freer style with less inline citations and they use a bibliography. Freelion (talk) 05:34, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Greetings

There are at least two kinds of self-published info. Simple facts are usually uncontroversial. If this were a biography, we might used self published sources for birthdate, parental backgrounds, schools attended, periods of employment: basic CV stuff. For a college we'd use them for the size of the faculty, student body, and campus, the basic facts of the history, programs offered, etc. On a topic like this, the uncontroversial facts are fewer. WP:SPS Another type of information would be information about the beliefs, teachings, etc. Obviously, self-published sources are suitable for that kind of material, but it is considered primary source material. It's best to use primary sources for illustrations or detail of a topic already covered in secondary sources. If secondary sources don't discuss it, maybe it's not important. WP:PSTS

As far as citing every line, I don't think doing so makes the article any more or less stilted. I think it's best to keep them and add more as necessary. In the long run, it makes the article more stable. If there is stilted language, perhaps we can fix it while keeping the citations. WP:V   Will Beback  talk  06:11, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the links and the advice Will Beback. I'm sure that the material I have in mind fits into the "information about beliefs, teachings etc" category (WP:ABOUTSELF). I will not be interpreting the primary sources but merely using them to flesh out the subjects already covered by secondary sources. I agree with your comments about the writing style (it's our job to make it more readable) and that citations make the article more stable. Freelion (talk) 06:56, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

most people's thought

Dear Everyone,

Suggesting new wording for the first line, wording are taken from an article published in India's one of the most renowned news papers, more current compared to existing notes/wordings. The Hindu newspaper is considered to be very reliable source and these wording were said before several thousand people, many politicians, civil servants and people from different walks of life from different parts of the world where witnessing. Thus these wording definitely reflect many people's thought, the current wordings are just one man's view in a book, could have been just a blog if it was more recent.

However I am not removing current wordings but adding more appropriate and thousands of common peoples thoughts front.

If everyone agrees I would also like the wording changed as new spiritual movement instead of new religious movement, these wordings can also be found in several articles and also said by Deputy Prime Minister of India (he was in this role when he made this comment), L.K.Advani,who represents much larger mass expressed before lakhs of people.

link where you can find the wordings: http://www.hinduonnet.com/mp/2003/04/07/stories/2003040700860400.htm

Suggestion: Sahaja Yoga is a methodology on self -transformation and creating consciousness that leads to a happy and blissful life according to many and few call it new religious movement "

Makeitclearer (talk) 19:30, 27 April 2011 (UTC)Makeitclearer

Thanks for your suggestion. However I don't think that would be a neutral or well-supported change. The Hindunet piece is an unsigned tribute to Shri Mataji. If we could find a better source for it we could add the Advani quote to her biography.   Will Beback  talk  20:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi Will Beback, Thanks so much for your feedback . I will see if i can find more articles. Please help me understand what kind of articles are are better for wiki? This article was published and was written by the hindu new paper journalist, also the words currently in the wikipage is from a book, single mans view. I can understand the just name of the website thehindunet, might not give the right expression who doesnt know the newspaper, Hind refers all people who are from the Hindus vally civilization. I totally understand, the name might confuse.

The hindu newspaper is in circulation since 1878 (under the same name since then and journalist from the hindu are given very high respect in India, 1.49 million readers and they are known for their fairness and righteousness, read by all community of people. The name The hindunet is their official website, they are online since 1995, first Indian newspaper online. Online since 1995, is a prof of their popularity around the globe, as reading online is more recent in India. The article was about an event that happened witnessed by 100,000 people(its the actual number not a guess).

Please advise, Will this be more neutral, (am not removing the current wordings but adding more peoples view in to it as the current wordings are driving it in one direction which is not true according to many many common people. The bellow suggestion will also be more neutral for the readers of the east part of the world and the west part of the world :). The current suggestion will give both type of views and refection of actual number of people, the proportion who thinks so,more of the truth. Please advise, if you think any particular words can be changed to neutralize it better. Suggestion: Sahaja Yoga is a methodology on self -transformation and creating consciousness that leads to a happy and blissful life according to many and few call it new religious movement "

I am sorry! I am making you read very long paras, I will try to confine it from next time.

75.44.13.108 (talk) 14:37, 28 April 2011 (UTC)Makeitclearer

need more clarity!

Hi Will Beback, Thanks so much for your feedback . I will see if I can find more articles. Please help me understand what kind of articles are are better for wiki? This article was published and was written by the hindu new paper journalist, also the words currently in the wikipage is from a book, single mans view. I can understand the just name of the website thehindunet, might not give the right expression who doesnt know the newspaper, Hind refers all people who are from the Hindus vally civilization. I totally understand, the name might confuse.

The hindu newspaper is in circulation since 1878 (under the same name since then and journalist from the hindu are given very high respect in India, 1.49 million readers and they are known for their fairness and righteousness, read by all community of people. The name The hindunet is their official website, they are online since 1995, first Indian newspaper online. Online since 1995, is a prof of their popularity around the globe, as reading online is more recent in India. The article was about an event that happened witnessed by 100,000 people(its the actual number not a guess). Please advise, Will this be more neutral, (am not removing the current wordings but adding more peoples view in to it as the current wordings are driving it in one direction which is not true according to many many common people. The bellow suggestion will also be more neutral for the readers of the east part of the world and the west part of the world :). The current suggestion will give both type of views and refection of actual number of people, the proportion who thinks so,more of the truth. Please advise, if you think any particular words can be changed to neutralize it better. Suggestion: Sahaja Yoga is a methodology on self -transformation and creating consciousness that leads to a happy and blissful life according to many and few call it new religious movement " I am sorry! I am making you read very long paras, I will try to confine it from next time. Makeitclearer (talk) 14:00, 29 April 2011 (UTC)Makeitclearer

Hi Makeitclearer, if you want to say that only "few call it new religious movement", you have to find a reference that actually says that. Otherwise it is only your own words. At the moment we have a good quality reference which calls it a "new religious movement".

You have provided a reference which reports that Sahaja Yoga have been called "a methodology on self transformation and creating consciousness that leads to a happy and blissful life". This is fine and can be included in the article somewhere if you like, but don't remove "new religious movement" from the introduction because it is well referenced and concise.

See Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability for more details about the rules on Wikipedia. Freelion (talk) 04:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi Freelion, What you think should be in the belief section since its your belief. I will agree to be in the first line only if its what is considered in all the 100 countries. Your references or not according to wikis priority of references. What you are showing is a book written by someone what he believes in. Thus I will agree that it can be in the belief. You cannot define what you think in the intro section unless and until you have evidences that its true in all the 100 countries who are doing the sahajayoga. Thus if you think its what it is then it should be in the beleif section and please discuss before if you are intending to put it back on the intro line and put it back only if you have evidences from all 100 countries. Makeitclearer (talk) 15:16, 17 May 2011 (UTC)Makeitclearer

That's an impossible standard and not the one which Wikipedia uses. We don't have sources for 100 countries agreeing on anything about this subject so if we followed that standard we'd have no article at all. The Wikipedia standard is to use the best available sources. WP:V In this case, that would be scholars. I haven't seen any who say that SY is regarded as a new religious movement (NRM) in some countries but not in others. The lead of an article should include the basic facts, such describing the essential nature of the subject. WP:LEAD Freelion's edit was consistent with Wikipedia policies and procedures.   Will Beback  talk  19:12, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Sahaja Meditation

This exchange between Makeitclearer and FreeLion is indicative of the emerging differences in approach between Sahaja Yoga as practised in India and many other countries, and the newer 'Sahaja Meditation' as practised in North America. This might need a new paragraph elsewhere in the article, or (possibly) even a new article, rather than in the opening paragraph. Yogiwallah (talk) 02:59, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Sources?   Will Beback  talk  03:15, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Not much yet in the way of sources as per wikipedia rules. Here's the Sahaja Meditation website: http://www.sahajameditation.org Yogiwallah (talk) 05:44, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I see that the site belongs to Vishwa Nirmala Dharma, the main SY group. The "About us" page seems to convey the basic history of SY. I don't see anything there that indicates a difference between SM and SY. Is it just a different name for the same thing?   Will Beback  talk  06:07, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

The short answer to your question is yes. However, once yoga as union with the Divine is removed (for whatever reason), then the term 'new religious movement' gets questioned. Hence the difference of approach above. But if it looks all the same to you as an observer looking on, then it probably will be the same for most readers... Yogiwallah (talk) 08:07, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi Will, We are doing this meditation at local parks and libraries, all of us sit together and meditate. We are greatly benefited in health and everyday life, especially kids with ADHD are find it amazing when handling their everyday life. These words 'new religious movement' in the first line has no context to what we do at the park. This is why am saying it should be in the belief section and with 'in some countries'. What we do is simple meditation and heal ourselves. Moreover the reference provided is from wipo, how is that neutral?? The complete first paragraph is from Wipo, how is that neutral??? when the reference from a newspaper with 1.4 million viewership and 100,000 witness was considered not neutral? Especially when there are difference of opinion, then it should be under Belief section. Approaches and what it is exactly is different in different countries. Thus all I am expecting is some fairness, that the into line is some thing that makes sense for all from all countries. I am not saying to completely remove but put it under belief section, I think that's more appropriate. I don't understand why this has to be the first line?? if its not making sense for all who are currently doing it. I don't know where you live, I suggest you to join and see it you self what and how we do in the USA. We parents are not happy with those words in the first line. I am wishing Wiki stays fair for people living in all parts of the world. Makeitclearer (talk) 13:10, 18 May 2011 (UTC)Makeitclearer

Thanks for that explanation. As soon as Sahaja Meditation starts getting coverage, or when we find the coverage it's already getting, then we can add material about it to the article. It sounds like perhaps a section on it might be appropriate. Let's keep the discussion of "SM" separate from the NRM issue in these discussions.   Will Beback  talk  22:00, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

The co-operation between Sahaja Meditation and Healthcorps would be worth mentioning:
http://www.healthcorps.net/node/130/blog/wonders-sahaja-meditation
http://www.ydig.us/tag/sahaja-meditation-in-us-high-schools Yogiwallah (talk) 08:24, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, if we can find better sources for it. Blogs aren't usually allowed.   Will Beback  talk  08:33, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Dear Will, Freelion and other editors, I can understand that you want sahaja meditation a separate para. We will have a separate para on sahaja meditation. All I am requesting is the word religion be removed from the first line. Infact VND (vishwa nirmala dharma) is considered as a religion as the word also suggest dharma means religion. This wiki page is about yoga, sahajayoga which means union/meditation word meaning. The founder started this new movement of self realization not like lets start a new religion. There is a reason for her to call it sahajayoga and not sahajadharma. We can have a separate para for sahaja as a religion all aspects and also add VND under that section. Unfortunately the word 'new religious movement' doesn't mean the same for everyone in all the countries. Calling it a religion will prohibit us from meditating in some of the Public parks and libraries, as there are so called new religious movements doing all kinds of harm to people not knowing their religion properly. we are doing sahajayoga (the word yoga was replaced with the word meditation though they means the same the western world once they see the word yoga, new comers where coming in their yoga suits with yoga mats. we had to clarify each time that its the sahaja yoga meditation. As the word yoga is meditation, it was obvious to remove the word yoga and replace it with meditation instead of calling it sahjayoga meditation). We do only meditation in these public places. Please understand the facts and agree to call it " sahaja a new movement found by Shri Mataji ..". a para on Sahaja Meditation(new wordings change) and another para as 'sahaja a religion'.

75.43.129.93 (talk) 14:25, 7 June 2011 (UTC)Makeitclearer