Talk:Sailors of the Imperial Guard

Sailors or Marines?

J-Man11 what do the WP:RELIABLESOURCES in English say as to whether this should be rendered as Sailors (those who crew a bateau, says Frwiki) or Marines? Have you looked for Marins du Garde Imperiale on Google Scholar? Buckshot06 (talk) 05:50, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

So I do have some references for you (some online to give you an example here for) and some paper. From what I'm seeing, members were called "Sailors" (like a rank), but the unit was referred to as the Marines de la Garde Imperiale (Marines of the Imperial Guard). Digby Smith says "xxx Raised on 29 July 1804 as the Bataillon de la Marine Impériale at a strength of a staff...". Then Haythornthwaite in "Napoleon's Guard Infantry" describes the unit better. "Seaman of the Guard, The Term "Seaman" has been used here as a more accurate translation than the frequent anglicisation 'Marines'; the Marins de la Garde were essentially naval personnel, French 'marines' in the English sense being termed Infanterie de Marine.". So if we want (using these references together) I can actually rename the page to the Seaman of the Guard of needed. However, as you can see there is quite a bit of 50/50 here.

Then, moving on we have another reference which states "While we English speakers have a tendency to anglicize their title to "Marines of the Guard", as most readers probably know, 'marins' in French royal means 'sailors', so these troops are more properly referred to as the Sailors of the Guard'.

So, as you can see there is some confusion, but for now I believe @Dormskirk it should actually go back to "Sailors of the Imperial Guard", until I have more sources to prove they were called (in English) the Marines, and not actually the Sailors. J-Man11 (talk) 15:20, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

There's no confusion. Haythornwaite looks like the most reliable source you have. Do you understand why? Buckshot06 (talk) 17:28, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Based on the reasoning, I would say it's because he's describing it in more detail, instead of Smith giving a direct reference, and no reasoning into the name? That would be my guess. I would also add it's the Men-at-Arms series, so Haythorn gives a more in-depth explanation and gives the explanation for the confusion in translation.. J-Man11 (talk) 05:33, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

@Rosguill J-Man11 (talk) 02:02, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Haythornwaite is a published WP:TERTIARY source. I am not sure where Digby Smith is drawn from - Smith is not listed in the references. Buckshot06 (talk) 17:32, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

They are sailors. There is no doubt about it. It is true, that they had a secondary role as marines, but their primary mission was still that of sailors and a quote from the French Ministry of the Armies proves it:

"So, in 1799 the Guard of the Directory (la garde du directoire) was transformed into the Consular Guard (garde consulaire), which no longer included the sailors [the Navy]. But Bonaparte, now First Consule (Premier consul) envisioned a landing in England and decided to create a special corps of sailors for the transportation [and of course the protection] over the Channel of his General Staff and his Guard (décide de créer un corps spécial de matelots pour transporter outre-Manche son état-major et sa garde). On 30 fructidor of the year XI (September 27, 1803) the order for the formation of the unit was issued and its designation was set to Mates Battalion of the Consular Guard (« bataillon des matelots de la garde consulaire ») and placed under the command of Captain Daugier. At its creation the strength of the battalion was set to 737 men between a command and five crews, each divided into five squads of 29 men. On July 29, 1804 the Consular Guard became the Imperial Guard and the battalion was therefore renamed to Sailors Battalion of the Imperial Guard (bataillon des marins de la garde impériale)."
So what we have is a unit, which is:

• commanded by naval officers - Captain Daugier is not an army captain, but a naval captain (Capitaine de vaisseau).
• the unit was initially called Mates Battalion (bataillon de matelots) from the lowest rank in the navy - Matelot = mate in English, same as Maat in German and the officers, NCOs and the sailors all had naval, not army ranks.
• the battalion was divided in crews, or ship's companies (équipages), which is a naval term.
• the term battalion in itself does not necessarily make the unit part of the army. There was a common practice in the 18th, 19th and the beginning of the 20th century to form units of regiment equivalent for the shore duties of sailors, who normally serve on ships. These units werecommanded by naval officers and NCOs. Two such examples I can think of off the top of my head are the Austro-Hungarian Navy, which had the Matrosenkorps with three sailors depots (battalion equivalents) in Pula and a fourth unit in Venice actually called a Bataillon for the sailors of the Venice Lagoon harbour guard ships flotilla. Another example is the Imperial German Navy with its II. Matrosendivision and the 4. Matrosenregiment.

On a side note if you want to better understand the French Sailors of the Guard, until the October Revolution there was a similar unit in the Russian Imperial Guard, called the Guards Fleet Crew (Гвардейский флотский экипаж). It originated in 1710 from the row men of the Emperor's galley or river boat, but with the time it increased to a flotilla. The Russian Imperial Guard was a de-facto independent army, although formally still part of the regular Russian Imperial Army. The Guards Fleet Crew was independent from the Russian Imperial Navy, but part of the Imperial Guard. It was commanded by a Rear Admiral of the Guard, it had its own cruisers, frigates, gunboats and pleasure yachts for the Imperial family. Its function was to transport the members of the royal family on overseas official state visits and to guard the seashore imperial residencies from the sea. This is the same mission of 2/3 sailors and 1/3 marines that the French Sailors of the Guard had.B.Velikov (talk) 18:32, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Thankyou B.Velikov. That's an official site of the French Ministry of Defence, thus just about unimpeachable for designations and terms, though one might need to be careful re WP:PEACOCK descriptions of military actions, and though I would myself leave matelot untranslated, WP:MILMOS#UNITNAME says WP:UE. I think we have consensus here: the page should go back to 'Sailors.' Buckshot06 (talk) 07:14, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

References