Talk:Saint Lawrence

Laurentius

Was his name Laurentius? -- Zoe

Your biography is restrictive: Martyrdom of Saint Lawrence was described by Marcus Aurelius Prudentius in his book Peristephanon (during life emperor Theodosius). Description is clear: He was toasted. There is another historical source that places his martyrdom a bit before, in time of emperors Gordianus-Decius. Thanks.

In Butler's Lives of the Saints (Herbert Thurston and Donald Attwater 1963, p.297) the name is spelled Laurence, although in a footnote they say Lawrence is the better English spelling. Elsewhere he is also refered to as Laurent, Laurentius, Lawrence of Rome, and Lorenzo -- MichSimOne

So, can Marcus Aurelius Prudentius' Peristephanon be considered to be WP:RS? There is currently not one single source, not even a secondary one, for the whole of the Martyrdom section. Was this section of the article constructed soley by means of the oral traditions of the Catholic Church? Quite impressive is it was. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:26, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Confusing paragraph

The Acta of Lawrence, were lost by the time of Augustine, one of whose sermons on Saint Lawrence (Sermo 302, de Sancto Laurent.) admits that his narration was gained from tradition instead of reciting the Acts as his preferred custom was (St Ambrose, de Officina i. 41).

I think this should be changed to:

The Acta of Lawrence were lost by the time of Augustine, one of whose sermons on Saint Lawrence (Sermo 302, de Sancto Laurent.) admits that his narration was gained from tradition, rather than reciting the Acts as was his preferred custom (St Ambrose, de Officina i. 41).

However, I still don't think it makes a lot of sense... his narration was gained from tradition, rather than reciting the Acts ... does not make sense to me. Someone else want to tackle this? Carl.bunderson 19:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Church tradition refers to everything the church teaches, as a whole. So basically, he used other documents in addition to the book of Acts. 131.151.90.222 (talk) 09:58, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Or rather, the records of St. Lawrence's acts. 131.151.90.222 (talk) 10:00, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

This text no longer appears in the article. Is this section still relevant? --Dan Harkless (talk) 10:15, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Cyprian's vision

What has this statement to do with the life of St. Lawrence? Caeruleancentaur (talk) 12:26, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Not sure why this is titled "Cyprian's vision" -- I'm not seeing anything about a vision there. As far as I can see, the Cyprian stuff in the current version of the article is relevant to the Life section. When you made your comment, it read:

Cyprian, the contemporary bishop of Carthage mentions the directive of Valerian that Christian bishops, priests, and deacons should forthwith be punished, and records the martyrdom of Xystus bishop of Rome, in accordance with it on August 6 (Wace).[6]

It now reads:

St Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage, notes that Roman authorities had established a norm according to which all Christians who had been denounced must be executed and their goods confiscated by the Imperial treasury. At the beginning of August 258, the Emperor Valerian issued an edict that all bishops, priests, and deacons should immediately be put to death. Sixtus was captured on 6 August 258, at the cemetery of St Callixtus while celebrating the liturgy and executed forthwith.[3]

After the death of Sixtus, the prefect of Rome demanded that St Lawrence turn over the riches of the Church.

Do people agree or disagree that the Cyprian-related text belongs? --Dan Harkless (talk) 09:41, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Holy Chalice

I wonder how old the connection of Lawrence with the Holy Chalice is. Does it predate the "Grail Legend" which seems to begin in the 11th century? The Augustine quote is something that could have been said of any liturgical deacon's role in the mass. So that doesn't help. Also, the article makes reference to the greek church (sic), but I am under the impression that the reverence of the Holy Chalice is a Western practice. Jim reverend (talk) 20:57, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I just updated the article with this comment: "Holy Chalice: Added {{Refimprove|section|date=June 2016}}. Only reference for the extraordinary Holy Grail claims in this section is a source for the short, ambiguous St. Augustine quote." --Dan Harkless (talk) 09:23, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

The Holy Chalice story is investigated in depth in the book "St. Laurence & the Holy Grail" by Janice Bennett. I just saw a TV-feature on it, and they made the plausibility of the whole story quite convincing. However, in answer to your question, I don't remember what sources tell of the rescue of the Chalice by St Lawrence. The book is commercially available through http://www.ignatius.com/Products/SLHG-H/st-laurence--the-holy-grail.aspx, http://www.janicebennett.com/books.html, or any online bookseller. --BjKa (talk) 16:34, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Ah there it is: "A sixth-century manuscript written in Latin by Saint Donato, an Augustinian monk from Africa who founded a monastery in the vicinity of Valencia [...] explicitly mentions the transfer of the Holy Cup of the Last Supper to Spain." http://www.janicebennett.com/books.html --BjKa (talk) 21:01, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Swift-Tuttle comet?

This source says: "The meteor shower that follows the passage of the Swift-Tuttle comet was known in the middle ages as the “burning tears of Saint Lawrence” because they appear at the same time as Lawrence’s feast." Can this be supported by any other WP:RS? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:34, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

The wording of "follows the passage" is very misleading. Swift-Tuttle comes around only every 133 years, but every year at the same time the earth has to fly through the dirt it left in its path. That's where the perseids come from. --BjKa (talk) 16:34, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

"Legacy" Section / Category creation

I don't think anyone would want to turn this section into a comprehensive list of everything named after St. Lawrence. At the time of this writing it mentioned a Basilica "in Asheville, North Carolina" and another Church "in Lehre, Germany". I don't see the merit of mentioning these particular places, as I find them rather obscure compared for example to the St Lawrence River or the Church of St. Lorenz, Nuremberg. See also the long list at St. Laurence's Church.
After a bit of checking, it seemed to me that having a Category "Lawrence of Rome" would be the Wikipedia thing to do, so I was bold and created one. The idea is to tag every relevant article with the Category marker [[Category:Lawrence of Rome]] - taking care of course that the object in question is not named after one of the other at least eight St. Lawrences!
--BjKa (talk) 16:34, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Done. Collected all of the derivative stuff in "Legacy". Whatever I deleted or moved somewhere else I found not relevant enough for this particular article, which should mainly be about the person after all! But I also put lots of links into "See also", through which all of that can still be found. However all those disambiguation pages are a terrible mess, so I hope the new Category will prove superior in connecting articles whith this particular saint. I've started by adding the tag to some important articles, but there is still much work there to be done. --BjKa (talk) 20:17, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

El Escorial

The story about the layout representing a gridiron and handle contradicts the article Replicas of the Jewish Temple, which claims it is based on the floorplan of Solomon's Temple. --BjKa (talk) 18:53, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 1 August 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. EvertonFC13^(talk2me) 21:10, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

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Lawrence of Rome → Saint Lawrence – I reviewed MOS:SAINT again, and to me this seems like a situation similar to Saint Monica or Saint Lucy. He is most commonly known by this name, and unlike other saints such as Augustine of Hippo, Lawrence of Rome is not frequently used either in religious texts or secular texts. As this n-gram shows Saint Lawrence is the most common of all four possible titles. Part of this could be because of all the things named after him, but I think that makes the case stronger: Saint Lawrence is the common name, and there isn't a title without it that is commonly used. In fact, n-gram reports only one usage of Lawrence of Rome in its archives. Unlike other saints without saint in the title, Lawrence does not have a common use without it. Additionally, I would say it is pretty clear that moving this title to Lawrence would be out of the question given how many things share the name. It seems in line with MOS:SAINT and COMMONAME to make this move. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:17, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support The suggestion is well argued and the examples are apt. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 19:57, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support per nomination and Bmclaughlin9. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 23:04, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support, per nom especially COMMONAME, and comments. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:59, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support move per all above.  ONR  (talk)  01:41, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support clearly the name most readers will be looking for. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 14:45, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Age

The text says "When Sixtus became the Pope in 257, he ordained the young Lawrence who was only 22, as a deacon" - but, if he was born in 225, he would have been 31 when Sixtus became Pope, and died a year later at 32. -- Beardo (talk) 06:12, 16 December 2022 (UTC)