Talk:Sam Williams (record producer)

Hijack attempt

The 2023 Edit history is confusing because an editor attempted to 'hijack' the article to make it about a different record producer who goes by Sam Williams. David notMD (talk) 10:49, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi David, due to complications that have arisen from the hijacking attempt, the matter of the WP article for Sam Williams (record producer) has now been referred by Patrick Earley to Wikimedia Answers. It would be extremely helpful if the community were to wait until everything has been reviewed by the Wikimedia team before proceeding with a decision regarding the proposed deletion of this article. Hari Teah (talk) 00:43, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Sources to avoid article being deleted?

WP:GNG sources are wanted. Best I've found is Billboard [1][2] (same article in both links), partial GNG-point, maybe. I've been searching "sam williams" supergrass. I have access to The British Newspaper Archive, a few hits, but passing mentions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:03, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi Gråbergs, due to complications that have arisen from the hijacking attempt (see comment above), the matter of the WP article for Sam Williams (record producer) has now been referred by Patrick Earley to Wikimedia Answers. It would be extremely helpful if the community were to wait until everything has been reviewed by the Wikimedia team before proceeding with a decision regarding the proposed deletion of this article. Hari Teah (talk) 00:44, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Hijack attempt update

Following on from my responses to the previous topics here: having spent several weeks researching and collating the correct citations and references to support a new updated article for this Sam Williams (the British record producer and recording artist), I have now submitted extensive information to Wikimedia highlighting numerous incorrect citations for the article which was responsible for the hijacking of this page in the first place.

Given the significant contribution that Sam Williams (the British record producer and recording artist) has made to the music industry as a multi-platinum producer, working with many notable artists (including Supergrass, Plan B, Kula Shaker, Gaz Coombes, and The Go! Team) alongside becoming an award-winning film composer in a career spanning over forty years, it seems extraordinarily unjust that these problems have arisen as a result of someone attempting to hijack the page in order to replace it with an article referencing a very young artist/producer who seems to have achieved nothing of any authentic note.

I am awaiting a response from Wikimedia before publishing an updated article to this page with the correct citations to substantiate the veracity of this article and relevance of its inclusion on Wikipedia. Hari Teah (talk) 09:40, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

A better plan would be to add the sources now. Theroadislong (talk) 10:22, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

If you have a WP:COI, stop editing the article. The hijacking is afaict not a problem in the present article, the problem is that it's not showing WP:N, which is discussed at WP:Articles for deletion/Sam Williams (record producer). It's quite possible that there are excellent WP:N-sources that aren't easily found on google, since he has a long and partly pre-internet career. But if they exist, someone has to dig them out. As I've stated, I've done some digging. Have you considered trying to find good stuff at [3]? You seem to have intimate knowledge, and should know what to search for. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:05, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your responses.

The reason I haven’t submitted any further edits yet, is because I wanted to clarify that it would not be considered a COI that I knew the subject of this article in a professional capacity twenty-three years ago.

I have since lived in Australia, but have continued to take an interest in the careers of people I knew at that time.

I would very much like to submit the article that I have created based on my extensive research, but would greatly appreciate your confirmation that I can do so without contravening Wikipedia’s protocol or endangering my account in any way. Hari Teah (talk) 08:54, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

It would be better to improve the existing article NOT replace it with your own. Theroadislong (talk) 09:06, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

You'll never get anywhere trying to overhaul the whole article at once. You need to improve it one sentence at a time, so people can review your work and provide feedback. Just find a good source. Share that source here and propose text (not the whole article, just a sentence or two) that source would support. Let others see if you've got the right idea about what kind of sourcing and content Wikipedia is looking for.

I don't know who you've been talking to, or if you've been talking to someone claiming to represent wikimedia, but that's not how wikipedia works. Nothing happens behind closed doors. The only things that matter are things said here and at the deletion discussion, publicly, and edits made to the article. Usedtobecool ☎️ 09:06, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, that's interesting

• "John's childhood as an only child growing up in Melbourne was stimulating to say the least. His first guitar teacher was his father, London-born Len Williams, a distinguished jazz and classical guitarist who was an evangelist for his instrument. He eventually founded the London Spanish Guitar Centre in 1952." - Australian Broadcasting Corporation
• "As the son of Len Williams, founder of the London Guitar School, and the brother of guitarist John Williams — a member of classical rock band Sky and also a soloist, whose rendition of 'Cavatina' famously became the theme from The Deer Hunter and a worldwide hit in 1978 — Sam Williams had been in and out of recording studios since he was a teenager." - Sound on Sound

These sources on Sam and John Williams (guitarist) seem a bit contradictory, WP currently states "John Williams is an only child". Thoughts, editors? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:18, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Come to think of it, it's not that contradictory given the difference in age. Still, current WP-articles seem to have missed that they are brothers.Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:42, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Even if correct it doesn't add to any notability. Theroadislong (talk) 12:18, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Correct, but if the article stays, it's something we should get right if possible. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:14, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Please see this reference from William Starling's biography of John Williams for confirmation that Sam Williams and John Williams are brothers. There is also a third brother, Dan Williams.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=v_etAwAAQBAJ&q=%22kathy+panama%22+wife+john+williams&pg=PT183&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=sam%20brother&f=false Hari Teah (talk) 23:09, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

New Article Content Establishing Notability

Following on from the previous topics, I would like to propose this opening sentence of content to include in the article, along with the attached citations:

Sam Williams is a multi-platinum record producer, songwriter, award-winning film composer and multi-instrumentalist, best known for his work with British rock band Supergrass, most notably for producing the band’s debut album, “I Should Coco” which reached number one in the UK charts, was nominated for the Mercury music prize, achieved platinum status, and sold over 1,000,000 copies worldwide. The NME described Williams as 'a backroom genius who produced and played on Supergrass’ debut'.

Sources for this are as follows:

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/classic-tracks-supergrass-alright (regarding production of Supergrass)

https://twitter.com/soundonsoundmag/status/1283287991390212096 (regarding production of Supergrass)

https://www.classicrockreview.com/2020/05/1995-supergrass-i-should-coco/ (regarding production of Supergrass)

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=v_etAwAAQBAJ&q=%22kathy+panama%22+wife+john+williams&pg=PT183&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=sam%20plan%20B&f=false (regarding production of Supergrass, The Noisettes, Plan B and Kula Shaker - this is an extract from 'Strings Attached:The Life and Music of John Williams' by William Starling)

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm6611671/ (regarding film composition for Captcha, Poaching Wars and V Sign)

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3902290/fullcredits/?ref_=tt_cl_sm (regarding film composition for Captcha)

https://www.nme.com/reviews/reviews-nme-1910-327932 (regarding production of Supergrass and also referencing The Animalhouse) Hari Teah (talk) 23:06, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

IMDb is never a reliable source because it is user edited. Theroadislong (talk) 08:01, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

In light of the comment regarding IMDb, here is another source citing Sam Williams as the composer of the score for Captcha (final paragraph):

https://vodzilla.co/reviews/shorts/short-film-review-captcha-2015/ Hari Teah (talk) 08:24, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Please note we are NOT looking for verification of what he has done, we are looking for in-depth, significant coverage of what he has done. Theroadislong (talk) 08:27, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Sources still sadly weak on usable coverage about Williams, apart from the SOS article which has some. I thought for a second the biography was about him, but no. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:00, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

It's probably not wise to paste copyrighted content here. Theroadislong (talk) 14:35, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your advice. I have removed that content. There are a number of similar articles on Williams. How would you suggest moving forward with establishing good coverage, as not all of these articles are not available to view online? Hari Teah (talk) 22:51, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

On what goes into the WP:LEAD, see WP:LEAD. In short, it's a summary of the rest of article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:18, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Would it help to upload a few more sentences for the article on this Talk page, with further sources, in order to create more of an overview and provide more useable coverage? Hari Teah (talk) 10:32, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

What will help is WP:GNG-good sources to sway the deletion discussion. Any work on the article atm is far less important. That discussion will be closed by an uninvolved editor who will weigh the arguments in the context of WP policies and guidelines, usually about a week after it started, but these things sometimes take longer.

If the article is kept, I think the SOS article can be used to add some stuff, keeping WP:ABOUTSELF in mind. And if the article is deleted, things can still change:[4] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:19, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

I think the NME quote sort of highlights the "problem" here, backroom genius. He's there, but he's not much noticed. On the plus-side, the coverage we do have is over a period time. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:40, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

In response to the request for more significant coverage, the Everett True book, 'Supergrass - The Illustrated Story' has a significant two-page section on Williams, including photographs of him and also of his band The Mystics. This content draws elements from an extensive, in-depth three-page piece in The Melody Maker.

https://www.amazon.com/Supergrass-Illustrated-Story-Everett-True/dp/0793564409

There's also more coverage in a Guardian article about Gaz Coombes, including a photograph with Coombes, referencing the making of 'Here Come The Bombs', Coombes' first solo album.

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/gallery/2011/feb/06/seven-days-with-gaz-coombes

And a further reference from an All Music biography of the band 'People In Planes', citing Williams' production of their album 'As Far As The Eye Can See'.

https://www.allmusic.com/artist/people-in-planes-mn0000848645#biography Hari Teah (talk) 08:45, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

The book could be useful, the photograph in The Guardian and a passing mention in Allmusic are both useless. Theroadislong (talk) 08:54, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Book publisher Hal Leonard Corp seems ok. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:50, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

New contributions to Sam Williams (record producer) WP

Could you please advise the best protocol for adding new content to this WP article, citing substantial references that I have compiled from my research? Hari Teah (talk) 11:27, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

@Hari Teah This page we're writing on is now the talkpage of a redirect, so almost nobody is going to look at it, perhaps excluding people who has it on their WP:WATCHLIST. That said:

You can try to add some reasonable amount of well-cited info on him in related articles like Supergrass or Mark Gardener.

You can also try to get a WP-article about him accepted. You might fail, but you can try.

If that's what you want, you take your time writing a draft, you can start one here: Wikipedia:Drafts#Creating_and_editing_drafts. Drafts are not in article-space, when you hit "publish" it means that you are publishing changes to the draft. When you have written your draft to what you think is WP:N and WP:BLP-good, you submit it for review. You do that by adding {{subst:submit}} at the top of the draft. A reviewer will then examine your draft and make their judgement.

For your draft, you can, if you want, copypaste content from earlier WP-versions like [5][6], but if you do that, you must follow the instructions at WP:CWW. You can try asking for input in places like Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musicians and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Alternative music. If I start a draft, I do it something like this:[7]. Get the usable sources in, then reread them, and start adding some text based on them. The WP:LEAD can wait until last, when you know what you have in the article body.

Hope this helps some. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:09, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Btw, if you have any pics of Sam Williams you have taken yourself and want to make available for WP-use, see [8]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:55, 19 February 2024 (UTC)