Talk:Same-surname marriage

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 13:20, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

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• ... that same-surname marriage was prohibited during periods of Ancient China? Source: any source within the "China" section of the article supports this statement

• Reviewed: Nicholas Wilder

Created by Feminist (talk). Self-nominated at 12:57, 15 October 2020 (UTC).

• New enough, long enough, within policy. The hook is interesting and correctly formatted. QPQ has been done and there is no image. The hook is supported by the citations following the sentences "Tang dynasty law continued to treat same-surname marriage as a crime, punishable by two years of imprisonment.", together with "The prohibition of same-surname marriage continued in the Ming and Qing dynasties; it was abolished towards the end of the Qing dynasty via judicial reforms, allowing men and women of the same surname and different kin to marry." and "Same-surname marriage formed part of the system of opposite-sex marriage in traditional Chinese marriage, where men and women within the same extended family were not permitted to marry, just as is the case in many patriarchal societies." Foreign language sources AGF. This should be good to go. It's an interesting article and it would benefit from being expanded. Kind regards, Yakikaki (talk) 12:19, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Unsourced content by User:144.178.14.10

User:144.178.14.10 has added lots of content to this article without sourcing. While the information may be true, it is best to remove it for now before sources can be located. Below is the text contributed by 144 which I removed: feminist (+) 07:04, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

my goodness. who would add this to wikipedia? 99.27.106.23 (talk) 00:35, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

==Background==
The history of surnames in China is different from Western and Jewish surname traditions. Surnames in China function as a clan name linking those of the same patriline, to form cohesive genealogies of patrilineal relatives. 

Regular Chinese communities of more modest means do not usually record the genealogy of matrilineal ancestors in the past. This was throughout all of Han Chinese history, the standard - to record only the patrilineal genealogy among normal and peasant communities - with the exception of aristocracy, royalty and imperialty, where the original Clan names of the Empress and other concubines bringing offsprings for the Emperor were considered of major political and socio-economic importance, and thus recorded in historical literature and funerary art and tombstone relics.

Unlike in the West, where consanguinity is not occurring all the time in family groups with the same surname, surnames function as tribal clans in China, and most of the time, especially in geographically close or even far areas within China proper and Chinese territories (islands), people with the same surname are indeed blood-relatives from the same patrilines and are cousins.
In feudal imperial China, and in many Southern Chinese and overseas Chinese communities today, these same surname, same clan-same relatives can trace their descendants from the exact same progenitor and ancestor from an ancient ancestral patriline.

Those paying Confucian ancestral respect at the same patrilineal ancestral temple are either blood cousins or rarely, adopted cousins, and an intra-clan family taboo exists prohibiting the marriage. Those paying respect at ancestral temples that are older, and further in the distant past in history, and sharing the same clan-name are also not allowed to date, romance, marry and have sexual intercourse. 

Those couples flirting within the same clan house during the prayers and ceremonial show of ancestral respect in these sacred halls or for illustrious clan families, public or private shrines that can rather elaborate and intricate in architectural detail, are considered to have committed incest, and invited the demons in the Clan. This was viewed very seriously during feudal times as portents of evil or disasters and bad times to come, or a sign of corruption in society which will lead to chaos and destruction, as well as divine punishment.

Many literary works such as plays and novels about wars normally feature secondary plots hinting at clan incest and same-surname marriage, such as the Modern Northern Chinese classic play, "Lei Yu (Storm)".

=== Modern Development (China)===
Since Communism took over in China, all feudal practices have been banned. Those continuing feudal practices are criticized, sent for re-education, detained, or sometimes imprisoned if linked to extended nepotism and corruption. Same-surname, same clan-name marriages are still taboo, are still criticized but criminalisation not actively enforced. 

=== Social challenges of offspring of Taboo breakers (PRC China / newly integrated Manchu clan members of [[Han China]])===

The Manchus are [[relative]] [[newcomers]] to [[Han]] bloodlines in China proper. The Manchus entered China by invasion, killings, genocides, rapes and village-burning to actively cause the collapse of [[China]] and [[Fall of the Ming]], and established the second non-Han ruling elite of non-[[Han]] clan non-Han patrilineal imperial household, known as [[Manchu]] Qing [[China]].

The [[House of Choo]] (in Manchu-fied Modern Mandarin / Hanyu Pinyin: Zhu1) also known as [[House of Vermillion]] has been the official Imperial Clan of [[Han Chinese]] since the [[Ming]] period, but had been collapsed and persecuted by the new Manchu rulers, who established the [[Aisin-Gioro]] clan, which later inter-married with Han matrilines (not not Han-patrilines).

Under Manchu, China continued the feudal and Confucian system, but Manchu tribes integrating into the Han Chinese clan did not at first understand the complexity of Han Chinese kith and kinship, as well as its elaborate clan formation and clan rules. It has been believed that same-tribe name marriages and or [[intra-clan]] [[incest]] from the Han Chinese perspective had been occurring, because the [[Manchu]]s where not [[Han]]s and followed a different social grouping and identification based on the [[Manchu]] tribe, a [[Tungusic]] tradition. 

Overtime, as the Imperial Court rule continued in the [[Qing]] period under elite bilingualism (Manchu & Han languages), and as with the [[Ming]], same-surname, same-clan name incest was prohibited, and no longer practiced. The [[Manchu]] also integrated into the larger Han clans as [[Sinicization]] occurred, and formerly Han Chinese society and language became more Manchu-fied.

However, it is known that not all [[Manchu]] from [[Inner Mongolia]] but especially from [[Outer Mongolia]] follow or know how to observe this taboo against same-clan [[incest]]. Along with the myriad of ethnic minorities who are now 100% PRC [[Chinese]] citizens, even with intermarriage, the complex [[Han Chinese]] clan incest taboo is not always observed. 

In addition, Modern PRC China is [[Communist]] and no longer [[feudal]], which has been purged out of its cultural consciousness. Modern [[China]] was established with the help of and under the great influence of [[Western European]] and [[Russian]] type [[Communism]], [[Egalitarianism]], [[Equality]], [[Gender Equality]], [[Leninism]], [[Marxism]] and after [[Deng Xiaoping]], a modified form of [[Capitalism]] learned from [[Singapore]]'s [[Founding Father]] [[Lee Kuan Yew]], known as [[State Capitalism]].

During this period, [[Ancient Chinese]] feudal society has aged out, and new replacement social units were established as [[nuclear family]] units, similar to the [[West]], unlike in [[South Korea]] or [[Japan]]. [[PRC]] has a policy of [[one-child policy]], throttling the formation of large ancient Chinese clans, only possible with [[male heirs]], [[unbroken male heir]] lineages, and debatably, with the survival of the [[polygamous]] tradition of the ancient imperial system of [[One Empress, Many Concubines]], know known coyly as [[One Wife, Many Little Wives]].

With male children exceeding that of female children in China, and the breaking up and ending of male male lineages, the PRC Government since the [[Global Financial Crisis]] has successfully addressed the greying population and aging population crisis by allow up to three children per couple now. However, due to the exorbitant expenses of raising children, the high prices of real estate and consumer inflation, Modern Chinese especially urban Chinese no longer want more than one child, or do not want children at all.
Due to this issue, children born from same-surname, same-clan name couples, do not face as many taboos as in the traditional distant past, just because children are so rare now in Modern China.

Many online bloggers especially from the Northeast Chinese quadrant, which has traditionally been more tribal and more Manchu criticized Southern Chinese Han Confucianist practices as "too feudal" and "too outdated". It seems that in the North, many minorities and Manchus have married into the Han Clans without understanding the system of Clan grouping and Clan kinship since when they were intermarried and Sincized, ancestral clan temples and filial piety and filial respect shown by attendance at Ancestral Halls or carrying our ancestral halls have no longer been practiced. 

In fact, many ancestral Halls in Northern China, even in the areas near the birthplace of Confucius, lay desolate and abandoned, which youth migrate to burgeoning cities en masse. Confucian kith and kinship, traditional Han identification with Clans and the system of clan homes is no longer understood. Same-surname, same-clan name dating, romance, sexual intercourse and marriage taboos no longer operate as traditional Han Chinese concept of society has been vastly modified.

Still, far away from the urban cities, and removed from the glamorous lives of wealth many youngster now live in Chinese cities, especially among the poorest peasants and miners, feudal clanship can be real.

Among many Northern Chinese Han peasant families stranded, and with no budget for traveling, romance, dating, and sex often occur within secluded, cut-off communities with only a few traditional Han Chinese clans. As such, not just intra-Clan incest romance, and sexual intercourse have secretly occurred. Many secret children have also been born.

Currently, there is an "outing" movement of children born from intra-clan incest or couples who are from the same clan having sexual intercourse and sexual relationships, to make them accepted as "normal" by the wider community. One example is the beautiful actress, [[Mixia]], a descendant of same-clan incestuous relationship, due to her parents' fault, and not her own fault.

Although there is increasing acceptance that this is "not so bad", it is still frowned upon in many conservative and traditional families, especially in Central China, like [[Hubei]], where the origins of the major ancient clans hailed, where even otherwise unpopular unknown patrilineal genealogies can be trace to the Fifth Emperor of Tang or the Third Emperor of Zhou. In such a hardcore traditional Han Chinese culture, marriage of distant relatives only related by a single patriline occurring say during the Ming Dynasty (which is seen in the long history of China as "very recent") is not only frowned upon, it is ascertained as "Definite Incest" having occurred.

There are a few celebrities in [[China]] and in overseas Chinese or mixed Chinese Diaspora Communities as in [[Singapore]] who are offsprings of same-clan name incest, such as [[Mixia]] in [[PRC]] and [[Princess Beatrice]] of [[Singapore]]. [[Mixia]] was born of parents of the same surname, same clan name and proven intra-patriline cousins. 


=== Modern Development (Singapore / Diaspora Chinese Communities)===

[[Princess Beatrice]] of [[Singapore]] performed an act of filial [[disobedience]] to register her civil marriage to [[legitimize]] her romance and established sexual relationships with her ex-classmate, a military sailor, who was dying of non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, a rare type of cancer caused by benzene exposure in the Oil & Gas Refining industry. As a result of this [[incest taboo]], [[Princess Beatricia]] known in Singapore as [[Wong Siew Wheng]], married her first love, [[Ng Yong Seng]]. She was subsequently disowned by her mother, [[Empress Maggie]].

Disowned [[Princess  tried to sail around the world from [[Singapore]] to [[Indonesia]], intending to [[commit suicide]] but was stopped by bad weather conditions, and left their sailboat at [[half-mast]] out at sea. A British man was later discovered dead, with his corpse air-dried by the salty winds. It was believed he had been homeless floating at sea and had been dead for many years.

Due to this social taboo of [[Chinese]] [[same-surname]] [[same-clan name]] incest, [[Princess Beatricia]] changed her official name and addresses, and starting raising charitable funds for cancer treatment by selling [[Australian]] [[abalone]], Wa! Abalone. <ref>https://wildabalones.com.sg</ref> This story was featured in Singapore's national press [[The Straits Times]]<ref>https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/hope-floats-couples-inspiring-sailing-adventure</ref> Due to sensitivity about the ethnic Chinese cultural taboo against clan incest, the details about their bloodlines were censored out.

=== Social outrage at Taboo breakers (Singapore / Diaspora Chinese Communities)===

Her sister, [[Princess Benedicta]] of [[Singapore]] was outraged with her disobedience, and issued a formal semi-public online announcements calling for her to stop selling her "[[incest]] [[mushroom]]" - a dactylographic error for "[[Australian abalones]]. It has been scientifically proven that non-contaminated [[Tampines]][[abalones]] have anti-tumor properties and [[Princess Beatricia]] has been trying her hardest to prolong the life of her seriously ill loved one, albeit at the expense of perfectly fulfilling Confucian filial piety respect to her parents and clans.

[[Princess Beatricia]] continues to be disowned to this day.

== Korea ==
Even stricter than China, Modern South Korea has kept to Confucian codes more seriously, as its social fabric was not destroyed by political Leninism and social Marxism as in China after the Revolution. 

As such, in many ways, modern South Korean society follow more classical Chinese Confucianist traditions than does modern PRC China.

As such, South Korean society not only makes same-surname (same-clan name) marriage a taboo, there are also laws in South Korea banning such acts, and making it a crime.

However, for those couples of the same clan-name who already have had sexual intercourse, and had romantic ideas about each other, or those entangled in sexual relations that cannot be stopped, leading to break-up or possible group suicide, couple suicide, if not allowed continue, Modern South Korean laws include a clause where such same surname (same clan-name) couples could meet once a year. However, they are not allowed to engage in sexual intercourse or reproduce. They are brother and sister with the same Korean clan, and this is not allowed. This is still a social taboo.

Many Korean couples in this situation move to emigrate to other countries such as USA, or change their names when abroad to disguise this fact. However, they are not allowed to change their names and marry in South Korea itself. This is not legal. The society does not want to promote incest. Same clan incest is seen as a type of same family incest, and is seen as both scientifically harmful (inbreeding) as well as spiritually and religiously sinful.

However, because at present, South Korean society is only made up of a small list of patrilineal ancestral clans coming from China, as well as natively born, it will soon be very problematic as many people share the same limited surnames and clan name groupings.

South Korean society is seen as genetically limited due to genetic bottlenecking. There are calls for Korean Reunification so that inter-marriage with North Korea can help solve this medical issue and social difficult of inbreeding and genetic bottleneck.