Talk:Samogitian language

POV

There's a problem this this article: it is not neutral. It states that "It is now usually considered a dialect of Standard Lithuanian". However, in the reality, it was always considered a dialect of Lithuanian, by most linguists and most speakers. Article referes many times to "The Samogitian Cultural Society" - in fact, it's the only institution which argues that Samogitian is the language and not a dialect.

The above was not signed; I wrote the comments below --Theodore Kloba 16:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

There are a few different issues here:

• I agree that the Samogitian language in its present form is generally considered to be a dialect of Standard Lithuanian, because the languages are mutually intelligible (although at times with difficulty). Note that institutions other than Zemaičių kulturos draugija e.g. SIL/Ethnologue do acknowledge that Samogitian is difficult to understand for speakers of all other dialects.
• Certainly there are are political motivations for the desire to designate Samogitian as a separate language. Since Samogitia is not presently defined administratively, this argument is not very strong; if administrative divisions are reorganized to align with ethnographic ones the argument might carry more weight.
• In my mind, the strongest potential argument for designation of Samogitian as a language rather than a dialect is that it has generally been on a path of convergence with Standard Lithuanian in recent times, but was possibly linguistically distant enough in past centuries to be mutually unintelligible with other dialects. (I guess what I'm getting at is that the now you're questioning is not meant to indicate a change in attitude, but rather a change in the language itself. Maybe this introduction can be worded differently.)

--Theodore Kloba July 1, 2005 15:43 (UTC)

This article must be renamed to "Samogitian dialect" (as it is actually named in Lithuanian - see the Interwiki link) and rewritten. The Samogitian language was rather a concept than a real implementation, so this information does not really have any sense. Samogitian IS considered to be one of the two existing Lithuanian dialects, any modern linguist would confirm that. Ąžuolas 15:23, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

The article itself says that it is sometimes regarded as a separate language. That is enough for Scots language rather than Scots dialect. So, for the moment, I'd oppose the move. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 11:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

"The Soviet Union" is sometimes called "The great motherland" by some people, but I highly doubt there will be an article will the former title. Oh, and does the word "sometimes" mean anything? I don't know about Scotish (dialect or language), but in 99% of cases Samogitian will be called a dialect, not a language. So the title is not adequate at all.

Sorry, forgot to sign... Ąžuolas 13:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I just happened to notice that there's now a Samogitian wikipedia at [1]. --Theodore Kloba 16:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

There is also Wikipedia in Simplified English. Does it mean this is a new language?

It means old language :) different language. Zordsdavini 12:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

And talking about the "Samogitian" used in there, it is not fully consistent to the current use of those people who speak this dialect in their everyday's life. "Standard Samogitian" doesn't really exist, so its written form would actually be comprehensible to the person who wrote, but representatives of other Samogitian regions would hardly understand him.

Sign sign sign... Ąžuolas 19:06, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

In XIX century there were languages žemaitiu,kalnėnų(not samogitians but lithuanians) and latviešu. All these languages were a part of lithuanian language. Latvian was lithuanian language, too. Some authors hold samogitian as the language (S.Daukantas). So, if latvian is language than and samogitian is language (considering to these thoughts).
First samogitian language ("dialect") writing systems were found in the middle of XVIII with the book "Živata", lost in 1863 rising put us back. In 1943-45 there was found again writing system and now it was created again (it's like to reinvent the wheel :)).
After all only samogitians can decide the status.
Don't be stuffy - we only want to exist and to speak in our mothers language. Zordsdavini 07:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

This article must be renamed to "Samogitian dialect". Gugugu 08:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Support M.K. 08:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose - I'm samogitian. And I suggest here to say who are you because lithuanians will be for 'dialect' and samogitians for 'language'. For the identity: [2] Zordsdavini 12:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose It was a language for ages but lithuanian done a big influence to it. I'm Lithuanian but I absolutly accept what Samogitian we must call a language. Hugo.arg 14:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Please don't be ridiculous. Scientific research cannot be made by voting. Those who are opposing must find appropriate proves in academic literature supporting their ideas. Can you give any proves besides your own knowledge? You are kindly welcome!

It was a language for ages but lithuanian done a big influence to it - the fact that Hugo.arg told something means actually nothing more that he told something. Samogitian was NEVER considered a separate language, this disease was actually started a couple of years ago by some romantic people.

So why does this article has to present so much scientific nonsense? Ąžuolas 14:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

„In XIX century there were languages žemaitiu,kalnėnų(not samogitians but lithuanians) and latviešu. All these languages were a part of lithuanian language.“

First of, a language cannot make a part of another language.

Second thing, may I ask a reference to sources where Latvian was considered "a part" of Lithuanian? --Ąžuolas 23:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Latvian is part of Lithuanian by Daukantas in XIX.

I Just noticed that this article does not list the sounds using IPA code. Was hoping to see that... Anyone willing to put it up there would be greatly appreciated. I would but, I don't know Lithuanian nor this "dialect/langauge". Thanks, Angu57oung

In my opinion each language/dialect has all rights to call itself language. For example in Latvia we very often call latgalian dialect latgalian language and there is no problems with this. But I want to admit other thing - there are a small mistake in the chart where samogatian, lithuanian, latvian and latgalian languages are compared: You`re welcome has a difrent translation in latvian and, I`m sure in latgalian too. I will corect it in latvian, but I cant to do it with latgalian (because I dont speak in this dialect). Uz veselību (in latgal. Iz veseleibu) means - on Your health and we are using it in two cases: as tost (eng. cheers) and when somebody gives a sneez. So I`m sure it isnt the real translation for english You`re welcome.--Riharcc (talk) 17:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok - I finded latgalian translation too :)--Riharcc (talk) 17:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

An article "Samogitian language" cannot start with a phrase like "Samogitian is a Lithuanian dialect". And to my knowledge nothing changed during the last about the status of Samogition - it's still a dialect, except it was attributed a code like Alemannic German.--Ąžuolas (talk) 18:43, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

An article can of cause start with a phrase like "language X is a dialect of Y", if Y is a larger diasystem or language family. For example, the Latin language is an Italic and Indo-European dialect. The only real error was to state that Samogitian was "a dialect of Standard Lithuanian"; of cause it is a dialect of the larger Lithuanian diasystem, not of the modern standard. 2A02:3032:207:AC91:A033:20BE:973A:9157 (talk) 06:24, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Combining macron vs. combining overline

If ė̄ is supposed to have a macron (U+0304), why does every instance of it in this article and on the entire Samogitian Wikipedia use a combining overline (U+0305)? —Typhlosion 22:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Are there any links between Samogitia and Lithuania Minor?

as they were bordering each other for several hundreds of years... Kazkaskazkasako (talk) 09:12, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

How du you interprete "Lithuania Minor"? This did never exist but is an invention of some political dream dancers of the 19th century. Perhaps you mean the northern part of East-Prussia inclusive Memelland which belonged to Germany and was officially called Prussian-Lithuania because of so many imigrants from Samogitia and Lithuania. The prussian-couronian-latvian dialect of Memelland was highly influenced by the Samogitian language but not at all by the Lithuanian language. Kaubri (talk) 17:01, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Lord´sPrayer

IP 212.12.209.182 removed Lord´s Prayer in samogitian language. Why??? Kaubri (talk) 16:51, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

This article is chauvinistic!

For foreigners who don't know the facts about lithuanian chauvinistic politics:

Samogitian language realy existed and still exists! But, couse of lithuanians (Aukštaitē | Highlanders) chauvinistic politics since XIX century and by other historical events such as world wars, occupations our ancestors language is rapidly dying. There were moments when 's authorities silently prohibited to use Samogitians name in historical sources. Samogitians had to be considered as lithuanians. It's probably the same political tactics which were used since XIII century by Vytautas the Grand Duke of Lithuania to absorb Samogitians and their lands, by spreading word to whole Europe that Samogitians are the same lithuanians, and speaks the same tongue. But there are none written sources by Samogitinas, which could confirm or deny. Some says that Samogitians didn't use writing language couse of their religion (paganism), other says that all written sources were destroyed in order to delete Samogitians from history.

The last time when Samogitians and Lithuanians were naturaly considered as different nations was during Russian Empire census at 1897. Close to 500.000 citizens of Lithuania were enrolled as Samogitians Source in Lithuanian lang.

Here is the fact, that Samogitian duchy was separate from Lithuanian duchy, also there are mentioned Deltuva duchy, which were between Samogitians and Lithuanians. Source Source 2

Moreower, standardization of Lithuanian language (which base was chosen as the lithuanians (Kauna Aukštaitē: Suvalkā) language) drasticly reduced and still reducing the number of people who speaks in Samogitian language. The new generation, especialy kids feels shame to speak in this tongue, because they are tought at schools that Samogitian language is farmers language... But this "farmers" language is not understandable for 90% Lithuanians, and this makes it unique as separate language not an dialect.

Lithuanian linguists are changing historical place names of Samogitia, they are renaming and standardizing toponymies - destroying historical heritage. Source

Even today the historical facts in many historical books about the Battle of Saule or Battle of Durbe are distorted or corrupted. There are told that lithuanians have fought these battles... but it's not correct, there were conflicted situations between Samogitians and Lithuanians at these moments. Samogitians could also become known as lithuanias since 1251 at best, when Mindaugas the Grand duke of Lithuania killed Vykintas the Grand Duke of Samogitia and joined lands. Vykintas

• Battle of Saule

For e.g. i've red tons of literature about the Battle of Saule (1236), but there was only half sources which were historicaly correct: Samogitian forces which were led by Vykintas the Duke of Samogitia fought and won against Livonian Order, NOT THE LITHUANIANS!

The name of Lithuania | Lietuva | Lietva | Litva:

Lietuva is derived from the word of lieti (in lith.), leiti (in sgs.) in englis it means unite or merge. Lithuanians tribe was only the union of few minor tribes of balts at I-V centuries AD. Ltater, the union of tribes had grown, at VI-VII Lithuanians merged with Aukštaičiai (Highlanders): Deltuviai and Nalšėnai tribes. From these times Highlanders became know as Lietuviai (lithuanians). Same happens with Samogitians, when Highlanders (lithuanians) and Samogitians unifies at 1251. The union of baltic tribes is called Lietva-Lietuva.

PS. I'm Samogitian and I love Lithuania with it's history, but can't tolerate the lies, falsification and the chauvinism. I'm not blind like most lithuanians, i can read and i understand, that the current situation is a threat for Samogitians to become extinct as the Curonians and Prusians. Velks (talk) 23:43, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Samogitian being treated as a dialect

As is mentioned in the article, Samogitian is treated as a language by most linguists outside Lithuania. As far as I can see, the reasons behind it being treated as a dialect within Lithuania are largely political. These reasons should be enough to rename it. Another reason is that it may be confused with the dialect of Lithuanian spoken in Samogitia. In any case, the article as of now is confusing, because it treats the language as both a language and a dialect. Whatever the outcome may be, it should treat the language as only one of these. My vote goes to it being treated as a language, for the reasons mentioned above. CarlosJalisco (talk) 14:26, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Noone? I would like to have a couple of users agreeing with me on this before doing any changes. CarlosJalisco (talk) 22:04, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Well? I've asked two times. CarlosJalisco (talk) 17:43, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

I am a historian, albeit not of Lithuanian history but I am a native speaker of Lithuanian (I grew up speaking it in the US). I do not speak Samogitian although I have heard it spoken. It is my firm opinion, based on what I have learned about the language as well as about what is considered a dialect in other languages that this is a distinct language, intermediate between Lithuanian and LatvianKvarnelis (talk)18:43, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Personal opinions are less than useless, folks - all that matters is what the Reliable Sources say - and the article is sourced, per editors who are linguists or have some heavy knowledge in the discipline.50.111.17.161 (talk) 23:11, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if these editors are the best linguists ever. An editor is not a source. Only a published book or published article is a source. If the published books and published scholarly articles are out of date, then Wikipedia must stay out of date also. New unpublished information doesn't belong here, not even if it's better. TooManyFingers (talk) 09:22, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Samogitian alphabet: New letter?

It appears that the table showing the alphabet is missing the new letter õ. TooManyFingers (talk) 09:18, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

IPA bracket misuse and missing IPA

This article misuses IPA [brackets] to give what appears to be the spoken names of letters of the alphabet in Samogitian orthography. Conversely, apart from a few random instances in the copy mostly relating to /ɤ/, there is no IPA in the article at all. There’s a lot of focus on how different letters are written, but none at all about the phonology of the language, not even a listing of phonemes. Virtually all talk of sounds is described using the language’s own orthography, which makes it virtually useless for someone who doesn’t speak the language. It needs to be in IPA. Kokoshneta (talk) 10:38, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 10 June 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:24, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

---

Samogitian dialect → Samogitian language – Mutual intelligibility =/= dialect per se. It's fair enough that the Samogitian speech is considered a separate language by some scholars in and outside of Lithuania, as mentioned in the article. Some examples describing the relations between Lithuanian and Samogitian would be Latvian and Latgalian, English and Scots, Czech and Slovak, German and Bavarian, etc. Ентусиастъ/Entusiast (talk) 14:32, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink).  — Amakuru (talk) 11:20, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

• • Ентусиастъ, I'm not objecting, but this was moved back in 2010 so probably warrants a full RM. -Kj cheetham (talk) 10:35, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Kj cheetham:, Yes, I know that the page was moved from Samogitian language to Samogitian dialect long time ago but per me it's better for it to be reverted back to the original name, i.e. language, not dialect. At the very least pure linguistic objectivity requires it. Moving the page to Samogitian dialect was totally unneeded and most importantly unobjective. Of course, the POV that treats the speech as a dialect will undoubtfully be mentioned in the article. PS There's a Samogitian Wikipedia on top of that. As for the RM, I never dealt with such things and so don't understand very well the whole RM thing and its variations. I'll be glad if you give me an idea how to make a propper RM if this one isn't such. Cheers. Ентусиастъ/Entusiast (talk) 17:02, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Ентусиастъ Suport I agree with your stance. This is an RM now, and it'll run it's course in about a week and someone will come along to close it. -Kj cheetham (talk) 17:10, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Is my new edits good?

I'm lithuanian and I'm only 12 but I have interest in history of languages that may well be extinct in near future pls Poodas (talk) 19:33, 20 July 2024 (UTC)