Talk:Samuel Clark (New York and Michigan politician)

Requested move 16 July 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Samuel Clark (U.S. politician) and the dab page as well. No such user (talk) 14:21, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

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• Samuel Clark → Samuel Clark (US politician)
• Samuel Clark (disambiguation) → Samuel Clark

– There are multiple people of the name, and this person isn't clearly more significant than any other with the name. Propose that the person be moved out of the way, and the disambiguation page take prominence. — billinghurst sDrewth 07:29, 16 July 2016 (UTC) — billinghurst sDrewth 07:29, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

• Support, but move to Samuel Clark (U.S. politician) to match the common title style. kennethaw88 • talk 05:35, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
• Move to Samuel Clark (U.S. politician) per kennethaw88. ✉cookiemonster✉ ^𝚨755𝛀 19:43, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
• Support move to Samuel Clark (U.S. politician) 2601:541:4305:C70:E081:8FCF:A1FE:F104 (talk) 18:50, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 27 July 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Samuel Clark (New York and Michigan politician). There is a clear consensus (which also led to the relisting following a move review) that the current name is not appropriate, but no firm agreement as to which is the best new disambiguator to use. One or two favour the proposed "Michigan politician" but there is some reasonable concern over the accuracy, which is fair because those who know him as a New York politician might not find that WP:RECOGNIZEable. It's really a choice between the birth year dab and the dab which mentions both states, and there is a slight favouring in vote count towards the latter, (4 to 3 I think) and it may be marginally more recognizable than the birth year, so I'm declaring tha the result.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:45, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

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Samuel Clark (U.S. politician) → Samuel Clark (Michigan politician) – The present title is incomplete disambiguation, as there are articles on two other U.S. politicians named Samuel Clark. This one was a politician in both Michigan and New York, but I've chosen Michigan as the disambiguator as he was more important to the history of Michigan, and Samuel Reed Clark was also from New York. Samuel Clark (U.S. politician) should point to the dab page. Cúchullain ^t/c 14:37, 27 July 2016 (UTC) --Relisting for needed feedback — Sam Sailor ^Talk! 11:15, 5 August 2016 (UTC) --RM previously closed as no consensus. Re-opened per move review consensus — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 18:02, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with * '''Support''' or * '''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.)

• Neutral the proposed new disambiguator isn't exactly accurate. SSTflyer 02:48, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support. It's hard to find an ideal solution in this case, since the Iowa politician was also a U.S. Representative. I don't think the proposed disambiguation is inaccurate, and it's as good as any other solution. kennethaw88 • talk 05:38, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose, also a New Yorker and New Your politician, and so misleading. Someone looking for the New York politician will be discouraged from following the correct link by the suggested "Michigan politician)". Instead, suggest all the Sam Clark politicians should be disambiguated by middle name or other, if possible, plus by birth year regardless, and that all have hat notes pointing to the dab page Samuel Clark. There is no ideal disambiguation for these. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:50, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support. Agree that "There is no ideal disambiguation for these", but the proposed move is preferable to the existing form. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 16:21, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
• Post-closure: I have been asked to review my decision for closing. There is one neutral and one oppose, and two supports. The opposer brought up a good point, that if the article was moved to Samuel Clark (Michigan politician), it very well could be misleading because he was a New York politician as well. Other disambiguation is available, like birth date or middle name, though he is not known by his middle name. ^Ḉɱ̍ 2nd anniv. 17:33, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

  Could you reopen the discussion? We need to find a different disambiguator, as "U.S. politician" could apply to the several other articles as well.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:38, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

• Procedural comment: RM re-opened, relisted per move review consensus at Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2016 August. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 18:02, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. Per SmokeyJoe. Assuming a middle name or initial would not work or could not be found, and given WP:QUALIFIER; seems like Samuel Clark (politician, born 1800) is likely the best option. I would support that. PaleAqua (talk) 19:20, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
  • He appears to have be the only Democrat among the American politicians at the disambiguation page if I checked correctly. Could we use that? i.e. Samuel Clark (Democratic politician) PaleAqua (talk) 05:29, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Akin to Clark's consecutive representation of two states {Samuel Clark (New York and Michigan politician)}, he was also consecutively a member of two parties {Samuel Clark (Jacksonian and Democratic politician)} [per Category:Jacksonian members of the United States House of Representatives]. In any event, if support develops for the "(Democratic)" formulation, I will also join that political faction since the aim is to revise the present qualifier. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 05:58, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

The Jacksonian democracy is the origins of the Democratic party. PaleAqua (talk) 08:59, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

If, for the purpose of arriving at a consensus for an acceptable qualifier, we decide to agree on the particulars of mid-19th-century U.S. politics [Clark's congressional terms were 20 years apart — 1833–35 as a Jacksonian and 1853–55 as a Democrat] regarding the legacy of Jacksonian Party as predecessor of the modern U.S. Democratic Party, that would also facilitate a resolution. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 18:40, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

• Comment from nominator: Thank you for re-opening, Andy M. Wang. I'm open to other possibilities besides the one I suggested, but the present title is incomplete disambiguation and isn't a suitable title. It needs to point to the dab page.
  

It appears there won't be an ideal title here, we'll have to pick the best among the less-good options. In my opinion, (Michigan politician) is our best bet; while it doesn't explain everything he was known for, as he was also a politician in New York, parentheticals don't need to cover everything. Their main purpose is to distinguish the subject from others, and "(Michigan politician)" appropriately distinguishes him from Samuel Reed Clark, who could also be called "(New York politician)". This Clark is also apparently best known for his activities in Michigan. "(politician, born 1800)" could also work, though it's less recognizable and concise. As for the middle name, it looks like he may not have had one, at least one that appears in sources enough that it's usable disambiguation.

At any rate, the bottom line is that it needs to move from the present incomplete disambiguation.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:58, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Per the below comments, I'd also support Samuel Clark (politician, born 1800). (New York and Michigan politician) would also be an improvement, but isn't very concise.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:18, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

• Comment. Anything apart from the current disambiguator. We don't use "U.S." to refer to people; we use "American". -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:23, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
• I just added a hatnote to this article, pointing to the other two politicians (even better than a dab page, because you don't have to wade through all the non-politicians). With that, I don't see any great need to move this article, since the other two are already naturally disambiguated by name. Station1 (talk) 02:21, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
• Comment. As a follow-up to Necrothesp's observation that Samuel Clark (American politician) would be the appropriate Wikipedia usage, it might as well be noted that the Samuel Clark disambiguation page, as presently constituted, has no politicians named "Samuel Clark" from nations other than the United States, therefore making the use of "U.S." or "American" unnecessary. In fact, under existing circumstances, Samuel Clark (politician) has the same meaning as Samuel Clark (U.S. politician) or Samuel Clark (American politician), since the other two politicians named "Samuel Clark" are also Americans. If there was a proposal to rename the page to Samuel Clark (New York and Michigan politician), I would support it, but, in the absence of such a proposal, I stand by my support of the currently proposed Samuel Clark (Michigan politician). —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 04:23, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

  Just because an RM has a particular name listed as a target does not mean that other options can not be considered in the discussion; separate RMs/proposals are not necessary. That said (New York and Michigan politician) seems a bit unwieldily to me given WP:CONCISE. PaleAqua (talk) 04:33, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Although I would prefer the existence of at least one other analogous entry which specifies the birth year in such a fashion, if consensus can coalesce around Samuel Clark (politician, born 1800), I am willing to also support that form. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 04:56, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

• I would also support Samuel Clark (politician, born 1800). Also, using (American politician) doesn't really solve anything, so I oppose that. kennethaw88 • talk 05:02, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
• Move to Samuel Clark (New York and Michigan politician); redirect Samuel Clark (Michigan politician), Samuel Clark (politician, born 1800); and Samuel Clark (Democratic politician) to that title. Redirects are cheap; accuracy is priceless. bd2412 T 14:23, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
• Instead support Samuel Clark (New York and Michigan politician) per bd2412. Both accurate and unambiguous, unlike the current and proposed. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:14, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
• Support Samuel Clark (politician, born 1800). This is about as concise as we can get while being unambiguous and accurate. -- Tavix ^(talk) 05:57, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
• Move to Samuel Clark (New York and Michigan politician) – Among disambiguated subjects, we have three politicians, all American and all active in the 19th century, so that when choosing a title, precision is not achieved by mentioning the nationality or the birth date. Precision by middle name is not informative, therefore I support precision by state, which makes them all unambiguous. The fact that this particular Samuel Clark was elected in two states should be reflected in the article title, even if it makes it a bit long. — JFG ^talk 09:18, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.