Talk:San Fernando Valley

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Nickname

The nickname for the SFV is “The Valley.” I’m not understanding why a user is trying to edit the page to say “the Valley”. This makes the page look like the nickname for the SFV is “Valley”, but the nickname is indeed “The Valley.”. Please explain your reasoning. Greeis6 (talk) 04:07, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Rather than being a nickname, the Valley is a short form of the Valley of San Fernando, just like the City is a short form of the City of London. Toponymic nicknames, too, are written without capitalizing the first letter of the definite article, e.g. the City of London is also colloquially known as the Square Mile. 92.100.47.168 (talk) 05:52, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

While i understand your perspective, in Los Angeles “The Valley” is actually used as a nickname for the San Fernando Valley. Hence why the San Gabriel Valley is not referred to as “The Valley.” That nickname, in its entirety, is solely used for the SFV, it’s not a shortened version of it. Also, please use “Independant cities” sections of this talk page to discuss Calabasas. Thanks Greeis6 (talk) 13:39, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

It is written as the Valley in authoritative print publications (official documents, books, large magazines) perused by highly skilled proofreaders. 178.66.148.152 (talk) 14:33, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

In a nickname sense, if you write “the Valley” it looks like you’re saying that the nickname is only “Valley.” Writing & bolding “The Valley” shows that “The” is included in the nickname. This is how the page was originally written, let’s wait for another user’s input before making this edit. Greeis6 (talk) 14:37, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

No, let's wait for you to provide superauthoritative sources before reverting the current authoritatively sourced version. 178.66.148.152 (talk) 15:05, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

You are not being very civil in your edits. Just because you think you’re right, doesn’t mean the page should be written that way. I have not reverted your other edits, only the ones in regards to the nickname. Again, since I disagree with your edits, the civil way to handle the matter is to leave the page as it was originally written (“The Valley”), until an admin gives input. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility Greeis6 (talk) 15:29, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

@Greeis6: Please provide sources showing that "The" is capitalized in common usage. A quick look at the references suggest that it should be lowercase—including the source right after the nickname! —C.Fred (talk) 18:14, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

I have also escalated this to a WikiProject to get broader input. —C.Fred (talk) 18:24, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

@C.Fred: https://www.discoverlosangeles.com/visit/hidden-gems-in-the-san-fernando-valley

If “The” isn’t capital, that implies that the nickname is just “Valley”. He’s also removing the bold from the word “The” in “The Valley”, which further makes it looks like it’s just a called “Valley”. For example, in “the City of San Fernando” it is just referred to as “City of San Fernando.” The article is not part of the name, therefore, should not be bold or capital. However, in the case with “The Valley”, the article is actually part of the name, therefore, it should be written as “The Valley”. Also, other valleys in the Los Angeles area, including the San Gabriel Valley and Santa Clarita Valley, are not referred to as “The Valley”, since this nickname is solely for the San Fernando Valley. Greeis6 (talk) 18:25, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Oh FFS - is this going to be another lame "The Beatles/the Beatles" dispute, with edit-warring and horrendously disproportionate nastiness? Everybody needs to take a step back. Acroterion (talk) 18:51, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

@Acroterion: It’s not that big of a deal whether or not it’s capital, but I think we can all agree that “the” should be in bold, since that shows that ‘’’the valley’’’ (in its entirety) is another name for ‘’’San Fernando Valley’’’. I don’t want to edit war, I want to reach consensus. And in regards to Calabasas, many many months ago when this page was edited, we had already discussed and agreed on removing Calabasas, Hidden Hills, and Glendale from this page. The map located right beside the “independent cities” section doesn’t highlight Calabasas at all, and a photo of Calabasas clearly shows it is in mountains and not within the valley. Greeis6 (talk) 19:18, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Than don't edit-war. It's your choice. We have noticeboards for disruptive behavior and for disputes of this kind. Acroterion (talk) 19:27, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

I've looked at some recent examples, and "the Valley" is what I've found. Do it yourself. Start here: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-01-16/valley-secession-jeff-brain-clouthub-anti-twitter There are other examples, too. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 22:22, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

You don't see "pitching The Valley cityhood," you see "pitching Valley cityhood." BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 22:27, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

@BeenAroundAWhile: Okay, then let's agree on lowercasing "the". Can we all agree on keeping "the Valley" in bold? Greeis6 (talk) 22:36, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 10 January 2022

This will not be done without a consensus to do it, and there is also no urgency to doing it while the article is protected.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:10, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Remove Calabasas from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Fernando_Valley#Incorporated_cities_(independent)%5B1%5D Some sources say Calabasas is part of the valley, whereas others do not. However, the sources on this wikipedia page, Calabasas’ wikipedia page, as well as the external sources in the article, and the map located right in this section, does not include Calabasas, so I think it’s better left out, to avoid confusion from different sources. Greeis6 (talk) 17:39, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

The official website of the City of Calabasas: "Incorporated in 1991, the City of Calabasas is 13.3 square miles in size and is located 22 miles northwest of downtown Los Angeles. Situated in the southwestern region of the San Fernando Valley, Calabasas is tucked between the foothills of the Santa Monica and Santa Susanna Mountains." —91.122.13.30 (talk) 19:07, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@91.122.13.30: Yes, we are all aware of that. But, the part you don’t seem to understand, is that mentioning Calabasas randomly in this section does not fit the article at all, since it’s not mentioned anywhere else in the article, nor do any other sources cited in this section mention Calabasas. If you’d like to add something about Calabasas to the page, I think it needs to be done a different way -such as adding something along the lines of “some sources claim Calabasas is part of the San Fernando Valley, whereas other ones do not.” Otherwise, this page is just contradicting itself. If you’re going to edit the page, don’t halfway do the job. Greeis6 (talk) 19:20, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

You have failed to provide any authoritative sources explicitly saying that Calabasas is not situated in the San Fernando Valley, so your proposed sentence, “some sources claim Calabasas is part of the San Fernando Valley, whereas other ones do not”, is an unsupported attribution prohibited by Wikipedia rules. —91.122.13.30 (talk) 20:16, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@91.122.13.30: I’m honestly beginning to believe you’re just a troll who has nothing better to do with their time. If we can’t come to consensus, either I, or someone else will be reverting the page back to the previous edits. The sources are sited all over the page, in addition to the interactive LA Times map located right beside the “Independent cities” section. Greeis6 (talk) 21:03, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

You should paste quotations from such sources here, on the talk page. Saying as you do that "the sources are sited all over the page" is an unsupported attribution prohibited by Wikipedia rules.

Here is the original of the LA Times map. The legend at the bottom of the map is "Map data: (c) OpenStreetMap contributors". "OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.". A crowdsourced map is not an authoritative source. —91.122.13.30 (talk) 21:17, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Keep trolling. Your contributions are not welcome on wikipedia. That’s probably why you don’t have an account and keep changing IP addresses - you were probably banned for edit warring. Try doing something productive with your life. Greeis6 (talk) 22:00, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Greeis6: If you continue to attack the IP simply because they disagree with you, or are requesting sources to support your position, you risk being blocked for personal attacks. In addition, don't threaten to undo the edits on the article after the protection has expired as that will be construed as continuing the edit war without having reached a consensus and may also result in sanctions. You should really be focused on reaching a consensus on the dispute that triggered the protection (Nickname section above) instead of branching out into a wholly unrelated issue.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:23, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Bbb23: I’m sorry, but have you even read this talk page at all? I’m not the one being unreasonable here. I’m the one who started the talk section for both Calabasas and the nickname. Try reviewing the revision history for the article, and reading this talk page, before stating your point of view.Greeis6 (talk) 22:50, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Greeis6: Editors have read your comments and you are being asked to comment on content, not on the contributor. Derogatory comments about other editors harm the Wikipedia community and the collaborative atmosphere needed to create a good encyclopedia. Fettlemap (talk) 23:00, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Fettlemap: Cool. But remember, i’m not the only one who is reverting this user’s edits, i’m just the only one who’s willing to talk about it. But, as you can see, talking to this user is like talking to a wall. Close mindedness is toxic on a platform where people are suppose to be working together. I’ll let someone else settle this mess, looks like it’ll be months long of edit warring between this user and someone else.

@91.122.13.30: @Fettlemap: @Bbb23: How about this for the "Incorporated cities" section:

Municipalities and neighborhoods

Communities of the Valley as delineated by the Los Angeles Times[32]

Incorporated cities (independent)

Los Angeles

Burbank

San Fernando

Glendale*

Calabasas**

Hidden Hills**

Unincorporated communities[1]

Universal City

West Chatsworth

City of Los Angeles neighborhoods of the San Fernando Valley[34] Arleta Canoga Park Chatsworth Encino Granada Hills Lake Balboa Lake View Terrace Mission Hills NoHo Arts District North Hills North Hollywood Northridge Pacoima Panorama City Porter Ranch Reseda Shadow Hills+ Sherman Oaks Sherwood Forest Studio City Sun Valley Sylmar Tarzana Toluca Lake Toluca Terrace Toluca Woods Valley Glen Valley Village Van Nuys Warner Center West Hills Winnetka Woodland Hills

+ These communities are also included in the Crescenta Valley.

* Glendale is sometimes classified as being part of the Verdugos. 
** These cities are sometimes classified as being part of the Santa Monica Mountains.  

Greeis6 (talk) 01:51, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Your proposed sentences—"Glendale is sometimes classified as being part of the Verdugos" and "these cities are sometimes classified as being part of the Santa Monica Mountains"—are based solely on a crowdsourced map and because of that violate WP:UNDUE:

About Mapping L.A. "When we posted the first draft of the map, we invited users to send us comments and draft revisions. We received more than 650 user-generated maps, ranging from the precise to the bizarre. After nearly 100 revisions, a map of 114 city neighborhoods was released in June 2009. In June 2010, the map was expanded beyond the city to cover all of Los Angeles County."

L.A. Times Database Editor Doug Smith, the map project's coordinator: "To be honest, it's more seat-of-the-pants than scientific."

—91.122.9.101 (talk) 07:46, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

I see. I think the LA Times source should be removed from this section then, as it is sited multiple times, and conflicting other sources. There are other maps we could use in its place, such as this one, that better match the more reliable sources, as well. Greeis6 (talk) 13:06, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

This map is more authoritative: San Fernando Valley Census Boundaries. —91.122.9.101 (talk) 14:04, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Greeis6 (talk) 15:42, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

References

Photo Request

If anyone is near a half-decent stretch of the Orange Line Bikeway it would be lovely to get some photos on Wikimedia Commons that we could use for illustration. TIA jengod (talk) 14:40, 13 August 2022 (UTC)