Talk:Sandilch

Utigurs were Hunno-Bulgar tribe

Almost all Google Books say that Utigurs were Hunno-Bulgar Tribe (except of 2-3 books written by Turkish authors): 1. all Roman, Greek and Byzantine sources named different Bulgar tribes as Huns (more than 2 centuries), it is highly implausible that they did so just by custom ( Kim, page 138 https://books.google.hr/books?id=jCpncXFzoFgC&q=utigurs#v=snippet&q=utigurs&f=false); 2. the anthropological type is the same- europoids with small mongoloid admixture; 3. the same type artificial cranial deformation of circular type; 4. the language is the same - mixture of unknown language+proto-turkic+proto-mongolian influenced probably by Iranian language. Paleoneurosurgical aspects of Proto-Bulgarian circular type of artificial skull deformations, Journal of Neurosurgery, http://thejns.org/doi/abs/10.3171/2010.9.FOCUS10193

1. "The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe", Hyun Jin Kim, page 256: " Thus in our sources the names Kutrigur, Bulgar and Hun are used interchangeably and refer in all probability not to separate groups but one group.", page 254 : " That the Utigurs and Kutrigurs formed the two main wings of the same steppe confederacy is proved by the foundation legend told by Procopius regarding the ethnogenesis of the two tribal groupings. He states that before the formation of both entities power in the steppe was concentrated in the hands of a single ruler ( presumably he is referring here to Ernak, son of Attila ), who then divided the power/empire between his two sons called Utigur and Kutrigur " page 141: "Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Onogurs were in all likelihood identical with the Bulgars"

https://books.google.hr/books?id=jCpncXFzoFgC&q=utigurs#v=snippet&q=utigurs&f=false

2. "Byzantium: The Imperial Centuries", Romilly James Heald Jenkins, page 45 : " The Bulgarians seem to have been in origin Huns, who may well have formed part, and survived as a rump, of the hordes of Attila in the fifth century. ... the so called Onogur Bulgarians are found in large numbers somewhere between the Kuban and the Volga rivers..." https://books.google.hr/books?id=O5JqH_NXQBsC&pg=PA45&dq=onogur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDAQ6AEwBDgoahUKEwistou42ZPJAhWGWiwKHUbUDxI#v=onepage&q=onogur&f=false

3. "The Empire of the Steppes", René Grousset, page 79: " Other Hun clans survived north of the Black Sea in two hordes : the Kutrigur Huns, who led a nomadic life northwest of the of Azov and the Utigur or Utrigur Huns, whose haunts were by the mouth of the Don." https://books.google.hr/books?id=CHzGvqRbV_IC&pg=PA79&dq=kutrigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBmoVChMIvfOPuuqTyQIVxQcsCh1bWwlR#v=onepage&q=kutrigur&f=false

4. "A history of the Balkans", Plamen S. T︠S︡vetkov, page 71: " According to Omeljan Pritsak, by 550 the Bulgarian state split into two realms : the Kutrigur realm on the west of the Azov Sea and the Utigur one to the East. ... Soon after that the Kutrigur kan Zavergan (550-560) made peace with Sandilkh and undertook in 558 a large scale attack on the East-Roman Empire. " https://books.google.hr/books?id=VR5pAAAAMAAJ&q=kutrigur&dq=kutrigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBTgUahUKEwi_m8Cm9JPJAhUEwxQKHZq8Ccs

5 Justinian and Theodora, Robert Browning, page 160 : "The Huns of Attila, and their descendants the Bulgars, the Kutrigurs and the Utigurs, were pastoral peoples of the steppe and semi-desert lands of central Asia, who had been driven westwards in search of new pastures by a combination of factors. The progressive desiccation of their ancient home, and in particular of the Tarim Basin, reduced the grazing land available. ", https://books.google.bg/books?id=gOIMSWMtow0C&pg=PA158&dq=utigurs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAzgKahUKEwiRrunKvo7HAhWrF9sKHSH-A6o#v=onepage&q=utigurs&f=false

6. . Maenchen-Helfen, The World of the Huns, page 378 : " In one instance we are explicitly told that the Kutrigur and Utigur, called Huns by Procopius, Agathias, and Menander, were of the same stock, dressed in the same way, and had the same language. ", http://www.kroraina.com/huns/mh/mh_1.html

7. "A history of the First Bulgarian Empire", "Book I THE CHILDREN OF THE HUNS " Steven Runciman, page . 5, " On Attila’s death, his empire crumbled. His people, who had probably been only a conglomeration of kindred tribes that he had welded together, divided again into these tribes; and each went its own way. One of these tribes was soon to be known as the Bulgars." http://www.promacedonia.org/en/sr/sr_1_1.htm

8. "Great Walls and Linear Barriers", Peter Spring, " In 460 the Huns split into the Onogurs, Utigurs and Kotrigurs.", стр. 199 https://books.google.hr/books?id=OfmxBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA199&dq=utigurs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCEQ6AEwATgoahUKEwia2MPL75zHAhVEhywKHcRYDHg#v=onepage&q=utigurs&f=false

9. Encyclopedia of the Byzantine Empire, Jennifer Lawler, " Utigurs - Hunnic tribe that lived on the east steppes of Don, related to the Bulgars", page. 296 https://books.google.hr/books?id=sEWeCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA296&dq=utigurs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAjgUahUKEwi427LD25zHAhVEECwKHc3wDFQ#v=onepage&q=utigurs&f=false

10. "History of the Later Roman Empire", J.B. Bury: " The Kotrigurs, who were a branch of the Hunnic race, occupied the steppes of South Russia, from the Don to the Dniester, and were probably closely allied to the Bulgarians or Onogundurs — the descendants of Attila's Huns — who had their homes in Bessarabia and Walachia. They were a formidable people and Justinian had long ago taken precautions to keep them in check, in case they should threaten to attack the Empire, though it was probably for the Roman cities of the Crimea, Cherson and Bosporus, that he feared, rather than for the Danubian provinces. As his policy on the Danube was to use the Lombards as a check on the Gepids, so his policy in Scythia was to use another Hunnic people, the Utigurs, as a check on the Kotrigurs. The Utigurs lived beyond the Don, on the east of the Sea of Azov, and Justinian cultivated their friendship by yearly gifts. ", http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/BURLAT/20*.html#ref39

11. "SOME REMARKS ON THE CHINESE "BULGAR"", 2004, SANPING CHEN: " In fact contemporary European sources kept equating the Bulgars with the Huns. At the very least, the Hun-Bulgar connection was much more tangible than the Hun-Xiongnu identification. " http://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/booksBG/Sanping_Chen_SOME_REMARKS_ON_THE_CHINESE_BULGARIAN.pdf

12. Classification of the Hunno-Bulgarian Loan-Words in Slavic, Antoaneta Granberg, Introduction : " (2) the data are insufficient to clearly distinguish Huns, Avars and Bulgars one from another;" https://www.academia.edu/683028/Classification_of_the_Hunno-Bulgarian_Loan-Words_in_Slavonic

13. Cafer Saatchi , Early Mediaeval identity of the Bulgarians, page 3 : " The early Byzantine texts use the names of Huns, Bulgarians, Kutrigurs and Utrigurs as interchangeable terms. There the Bulgarians are represented as identical, they are a part of Huns or at least have something common with them. The khans Avtiochol and Irnik, listed in the Nominalia of the Bulgarian khans today are identified with Attila and Ernach.", http://www.academia.edu/10894065/Early_Mediaeval_identity_of_the_Bulgarians

14. The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Volume 4, Edward Gibbon, page 537: " And both Procopius and Agathias represent Kotrigurs and Utigurs as tribes of Huns. There can be no doubt Kutrigurs, Utigurs and Bulgars belong to the same race as the Huns of Attila and spoke tongues closely related, - were in fact Huns. They had all been under Attila's dominion", https://books.google.bg/books?id=j83oF6YQI68C&dq=utigurs&q=utigurs#v=snippet&q=utigurs&f=false

15. The Huns of Justinian: Byzantium, Utigur and Kutrigur, Ricci, Joseph http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/94441061/huns-justinian-byzantium-utigur-kutrigur

16. The Wars of Justinian, Prokopios, " Utigur Huns, tribe near the Sea of Azov" https://books.google.bg/books?id=eK9aBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA638&lpg=PA638&dq=utigur&source=bl&ots=GixSXSPUuC&sig=OBCGMS6Y5og6NdMbYr04wL-byio&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEkQ6AEwCGoVChMI6_CL7IGWyQIVy44sCh0VPQ7r#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=false

17. The Age of Justinian, J. A. S. Evans, page 78 https://books.google.bg/books?id=jjSDAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78&dq=utigur&source=bl&ots=vpLPsXJMUK&sig=Hkkj_4k0inacyEGz4OM0WI-Lfto&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwADgoahUKEwjZgu6GhZbJAhWIVSwKHQqcD3o#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=false

18. Cambridge Medieval History, Shorter: Volume 1, The Later Roman Empire, C. W. Previté-Orton https://books.google.bg/books?id=RXU5AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=utigur&source=bl&ots=V7yIeGSrvF&sig=82b_onYnZTrZQUGEQl-7P5bUi3g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAzgoahUKEwjZgu6GhZbJAhWIVSwKHQqcD3o#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=false

19. http://carpdemo.cloudapp.net/FactFinder/demo/en?subject=Utigur%20Bulgars&context=Bulgars

20. Siege Warfare and Military Organization in the Successor States, Leif Inge Ree Petersen, page 369

21. Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland https://books.google.bg/books?id=m_6zAAAAIAAJ&q=utigur&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEcQ6AEwCGoVChMIz5XCoo-WyQIVg1kaCh3MnQym

22. Justinian, John Moorhead, https://books.google.bg/books?id=aacuAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT180&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBzgKahUKEwiQorefkZbJAhUDOxoKHSaDBbM#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=false

23. The Cambridge Companion to the Age of Justinian, Michael Maas, https://books.google.bg/books?id=9AvjaThtrKYC&pg=PA624&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBzgUahUKEwjDt-3RkZbJAhUBVxoKHW-tBaQ#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=false

24. Early Medieval Europe, 300-1000, Roger Collins, page 206 https://books.google.bg/books?id=ZukcBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA206&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEYQ6AEwCDgUahUKEwjDt-3RkZbJAhUBVxoKHW-tBaQ#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=false

25. The Cambridge Medieval History, Series volumes 1-5, https://books.google.bg/books?id=9lHeh36S8ooC&pg=PT582&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBwQ6AEwADgeahUKEwid_pDUkpbJAhUBCBoKHQ0XB1M#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=false

26. Justinian and the Later Roman Empire, John W. Barker, page 199 https://books.google.bg/books?id=LiJljEXvwAoC&pg=PA199&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBzgeahUKEwid_pDUkpbJAhUBCBoKHQ0XB1M#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=false

27. The Cambridge History of Greek and Roman Warfare, Volume 2, https://books.google.bg/books?id=4aX-W6AVNv8C&pg=PA606&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFAQ6AEwCTgeahUKEwid_pDUkpbJAhUBCBoKHQ0XB1M#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=false

28. Information and Frontiers: Roman Foreign Relations in Late Antiquity, A. D. Lee https://books.google.bg/books?id=qKi1O3KvjkAC&pg=PA212&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBwQ6AEwADgoahUKEwjwxcmClJbJAhUBqxoKHTAeCWo#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=false

29. The Collected Works of M.A. Czaplicka, Volume 1, Marie Antoinette Czaplicka, https://books.google.bg/books?id=uFkK2oz8L-kC&pg=PA68&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBTgoahUKEwjwxcmClJbJAhUBqxoKHTAeCWo#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=false

30. Attila the Hun, Nic Fields, https://books.google.bg/books?id=rxBaCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA64&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEwQ6AEwCDgoahUKEwjwxcmClJbJAhUBqxoKHTAeCWo#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=false

31. The emperor Maurice and his historian, Michael Whitby, https://books.google.bg/books?id=xdxQAQAAIAAJ&q=utigur&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEwQ6AEwCThGahUKEwjZlqaElZbJAhVEuBoKHR9DAMI

32. Armies of the Dark Ages, Ian Heath, https://books.google.bg/books?id=qKdkCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA53&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CC8Q6AEwBDhuahUKEwj7-an4lZbJAhUBgBoKHT4fD4M#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=false

and so on. WHAT IS THE FEELING TO DELETE ALL THESE BOOKS FROM WP? DO YOU FEEL AS a LIAR ? Is it painful dude? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.152.143.113 (talk) 00:15, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Stop intentionally doing disruptive edits. You don't know how Wikipedia is edited. Outdated sources and scholars (who died from 18th till mid 20th century), unreliable sources, sources without reference and who don't follow contemporary mainstream scholarship, scholars who're not even anthropologist, historian, linguist and specialist in specific field according Wikipedia:Neutral point of view cannot be given due and unde weight, equal validity and even be cited if is minor theory. NPOV is a fundamental principle, while other two core content policies are Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research, also Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and Wikipedia:Fringe theories. Most of those sources were already reviewed in the Talk:Zabergan.--Crovata (talk) 18:50, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

false accusations; and by the way - why only Turks that live outside Turkey are doing this? I really want to know. People from Turkey behave normally. What is the explanation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.152.143.113 (talk) 20:16, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk page of specific article is not used for useless chatting.--Crovata (talk) 20:40, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Sandilich = Kandelich - Chief of Avar

Sandilich is a fault interpretation of Otto J. Maenchen-Helfen. He is not a Utigur, he is Kandelich a Avar Chief and he make a contract with Justinian 558-562 against the Kutigur Zabergan and Gepides. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:46:D02:C8F:24FE:8697:D716:E02C (talk) 20:22, 15 September 2016 (UTC)