Talk:Saraiki language/Archive 5

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Requested move 22 October 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. There is a consensus here that Saraiki is commonly referred to as a language. Jenks24 (talk) 10:12, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

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Saraiki dialect → Saraiki language – The article should be moved back to its stable title Saraiki language, as this has much better support in the sources (see this statement for the details). Noting that the use of "dialect" in the title goes against the naming conventions: The word "language" is used for varieties which have standard forms, per common usage, even if they are not distinct languages by other criteria. – Uanfala 23:53, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Pinging participants in the previous discussion: @Bd2412, Bradv, Amakuru, Kautilya3, Paine Ellsworth, Kashmiri, Mar4d, SheriffIsInTown, RegentsPark, SmokeyJoe, and Ish ishwar:. – Uanfala 23:53, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

I'd also point to the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes)#Self-identification policy.

How the group self-identifies should be considered. If their autonym is commonly used in English, it would be the best article title. Any terms regarded as derogatory by members of the ethnic group in question should be avoided.

It's a related issue. Perhaps that page should be modified to include self-designation of language as well or the language modified to include the topic. (Otherwise, wikipedia will treat language names and people names by different criteria, which would seem strange to me.) – ishwar  (speak) 01:26, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

• Support, and for reasons as to why, refer to my previous comments in the lengthy discussion here. Saraiki has been spoken for centuries and has its own words, literature, poetry, oral history, culture, and more recently, media. These are not the typical characteristics of a "dialect"; it is by far a language in its own right, and the sources supporting this have been covered to death in past discussions. The Census of Pakistan has in the past recorded it separately from Punjabi. The 20 million people who speak this language, known as Saraiki people, are a separate ethnolinguistic group in Pakistan with diverse origins. Most importantly, the region where Saraiki is predominately spoken, South Punjab, is distinct from mainland Punjab which stretches from the Majha plains of the north to the eastern Doaba region in India, where the Punjabis are found. Sure, Saraiki shares and even derives much from Punjabi, but to simply downgrade it to a dialect is rather oversimplifying its status. Mar4d (talk) 06:22, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
• Support - reliable sources more often than not treat this as a language rather than a dialect, as indicated in the nomination. Note that the distinction between these two concepts is not just whether they are mutually intelligible, but it is also linked to the ethnicity and national affiliation of the speakers. The Seraiki people are a separate ethnicity from other people that speak Punjabi, and hence why their tongue is considered a language. This is similar to, for example, Northern Sotho language, Sotho language, Tswana language - these are all mutually intelligble tongues, all spoken in South Africa (and neighbouring countries), but divided into languages according to their speakers. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 11:54, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
• Opposed recent sock master added checklist hmmmmm its very relevant. [1]. It ends as Saraiki not a language. Elevonjan (talk) 16:52, 23 October 2017 (UTC) — Elevonjan (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Support. Now that the issue has been separated from "Saraiki" as a PTOPIC language title, I can more clearly see that moving this page to Saraiki language would be an NPOV improvement to Wikipedia. The nom has worked long and hard on making this improvement, and so should be commended for the effort by renaming this page as suggested.  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there  17:46, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

• Support. Per Wikipedia policy mentioned above and per the sources and arguments previously mentioned and per general linguistic practice. – ishwar  (speak) 05:33, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
• Support, the proposed title better matches our naming conventions and the content of the article. – filelakeshoe (t / c)  18:09, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
• Support - The "language" label is adequately supported by the reliable sources. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:19, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

• Someone has asked me to intervene on this, because I am supposedly neutral. The edits requesting that I do this have been reverted.

I have no particular expertise on the question of Saraiki as a language vs. dialect (although someone at my organization is about to publish a grammar of Punjabi, Saraiki and Hindko, and I believe they consider S and H to be distinct languages from P). But I will say this: the question of language vs. dialect is fraught with difficulty. For a linguist, two varieties are distinct languages if there is not "mutual intelligibility". But what "mutual intelligibility" means is itself a difficult question; I can understand Spanish because I learned it, but that obviously does not make Spanish a dialect of English. I suspect (but don't know) that most Saraiki speakers can understand Punjabi, but that could simply be because they're exposed to it on TV, radio etc. And I'm sure most Punjabi speakers (at least speakers of Punjabi as spoken in Pakistan) can understand Saraiki to some extent. But how well they understand Saraiki is probably an open question, and perhaps speakers of Punjabi spoken in different regions can understand Saraiki more or less well.

The average person, on the other hand, understands the distinction between 'language' and 'dialect' in quite a different way, as more of a social or political question. I'm more familiar with the situation in South America, where indigenous languages, which are entirely different from Spanish (or Portuguese) in every way, are often referred to as 'dialects'. This is a purely derogatory usage, and simply means a language that the Spanish speaker doesn't consider as prestigious as Spanish.

So in my opinion, the fact that someone has referred in print to Saraiki as a 'dialect' of Punjabi is probably irrelevant to the discussion here, because that terminology will in most cases refer to the average person's point of view. The Wikipedia is, from what I understand, committed to a scientific/ linguistic viewpoint. And if linguists say that Saraiki and Punjabi are mutually unintelligible (probably on the basis that Punjabi speakers cannot reliably understand Saraiki speakers, and possibly the other way around), then that's probably the stance that the Wikipedia article should reflect.

The real question, then, that people should be asking in this discussion is to what extent P and S are not mutually unintelligible. In my opinion, lining up a bunch of references to people calling Saraiki a dialect is no more evidence that Saraiki is a dialect of Punjabi, than the fact that Spanish speakers have called Cofan (an indigenous language of Ecuador) a dialect would count as evidence that Cofan is not a distinct language. The evidence that should count is rather linguistic studies of mutual intelligibility, preferably done with standard testing methods. SIL (who btw is the source of the Ethnologue) is an organization that has done that kind of testing; perhaps other organizations have too. Ask them whether S and P are distinct languages. Mcswell (talk) 20:06, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

• Leaning oppose, despite much sympathy for the Saraiki-speaking people. The dialect vs language question here is more of a political than linguistical one. The mutual intellegibility test is hard to carry out in South Asia where gaon gaon pani badal jata hai, panch panch gaon zuban badal jati hai (water changes every village, speech changes every five villages) and, primarily for historical and geographical reasons, more interrelation and, thus, intellegibility is observed between neighbouring vernaculars than the test foresees. Under Rajasthani language for instance, we read about "50 to 65 percent overlap with Hindi based on ... Swadesh list" and even about "conflation of the two", but this does not prevent Rajasthani from being considered a language. I expect at least a similar degree of ovelap for Punjabi, Saraiki and Hindko.

So, here we come to the first (the more scientific) meaning of dialect where the deciding factor is the existence of dialect continuum. In Punjab, there is, of course, a dialect continuum that encompasses Saraiki, Punjabi and Hindko.

Sure, one can argue that use of "dialect" for Saraiki is mostly in the second meaning of the term dialect where social and political factors decide that Punjabi is a language and Saraiki is not ("A language is a dialect with an army and navy", as Max Weinreich once said). But then – do we want Wikipedia definitions to depend on social and political factors or, rather. be based on science?

Hence my !vote. — kashmiri ^TALK 23:56, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

If Saraiki is part of a dialect continuum then it is more likely better described as a set of dialects, rather than a single dialect. If Punjabi and Saraiki are part of a dialect continuum but we're going to have articles called "Punjabi language" and "Saraiki dialect" then we are using socio-political criteria to name the articles. – filelakeshoe (t / c)  08:37, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2018

119.154.100.150 (talk) 18:48, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

۔ ____________ مجھےاپنا غلام بنا لیں ___________

ایک کافر جوان اپنے چچا کی بیٹی پر عاشق ہو گیا اس کا چچا حبشہ کا بادشاہ تها جوان اپنے چچا کے پاس گیا اور کہا: چچا جان مجهے آپکی بیٹی پسند ہے میں اسکی خواستگاری کے لئے آیا ہوں. بادشاہ نے کہا:کوئی بات نہیں لیکن اس کا مهر بہت بهاری ہے. جوان نے کہا جو کچھ بھی ہو مجهے قبول ہے. بادشاہ نے کہا:مدینہ شهر میں میرا ایک دشمن رہتا ہے اس کا سر میرے پاس لائو اس وقت میری بیٹی تمہاری ہو گی.جوان نے کہا : چچا جان آپکے دشمن کا نام کیا ہے ؟ کہا: لوگ اسے علی ابن ابی طالب کے نام سے جانتے ہیں جوان نے فورا گهوڑے کے اوپر زین رکهی اور تیر، تلوا،ر نیزہ اور کمان کے ساتھ راہی مدینہ ہوا. جب شهر کے نزدیک ایک تپہ کے اوپر پہنچا تو دیکها کہ ایک عربی جوان نخلستان میں باغبانی و بیلچہ چلا رہا ہے. جوان کے نزدیک گیا اور کہا: اے مرد عرب کیا تم علی کو جانتے ہو؟ جوان عرب نے کہا:علی سے کیا کام ہے؟ اس نے کہا: اپنے چچا جو کہ حبشہ کا بادشاہ ہے اس کے لئے علی کا سر لینے آیا ہوں کیونکہ اس نے اپنی بیٹی کا حق مهر علی کا سر قرار دیا ہے. جوان عرب نے کہا: تم علی کا مقابلہ نہیں کرسکتے. اس نے کہا:کیا علی کو جانتے ہو؟ جوان عرب:جی ہر روز اس کے ساتھ ہوتا ہوں اور ہر روز اس کو دیکهتا ہوں. اس نے کہا:علی کیسی هیبت رکهتا ہے کہ میں اس کا سر تن سے جدا نہیں کر سکتا؟ جوان عرب:میرے قد جتنا اس کا قد ہے اور هیکل (جسامت) بهی میرے اندازہ کے مطابق ہے. اس نے کہا :اگر تہماری طرح ہے تو پهر مسئلہ کوئی نئیں. مرد عرب نے کہا: پہلے تم مجهے شکست دو پهر میں تم کو علی کا پتہ بتاؤں گا. کہا:شمشیر و تیر و کمان و سنان. کہا: آمادہ ہو جاو. جوان اونچی آواز میں ہنسا اور کہا کیا تم اس بیلچے سے مجهے شکست دو گے؟ پس تیار ہو جاو شمشیر کو نیام سے نکالا .پهر پوچها کہ تمہارا نام کیا ہے؟ مرد عرب نے جواب دیا عبد اللہ. تمہارا نام کیا ہے ؟ اس نے کہا فتاح اور اسی لمحے تلوار کے ساتھ عبد اللہ پر حملہ کر دیا.عبد اللہ نے چشم زدن میں اس کو کندهے اور بازو سے پکڑا اور آسمان کی طرف بلند کیا اور زمین پر دے مارا اور اس کا خنجر اپنے ہاتھ میں لیا اور بلند کیا. اچانک دیکها کہ جوان کی آنکھوں سے آنسو جاری ہو رہے ہیں. مرد عرب نے کہا:کیوں رو رہے ہو؟ جوان نے کہا:میں اپنے چچا کی بیٹی کا عاشق تها آیا تها تاکہ علی کا سر اپنے چچا کے لئے لے جاو تاکہ وہ اپنی دختر مجهے دے لیکن لگتا ہے ابهی آپکے ہاتھوں سے مارا جاؤں گا. مرد عرب نے جوان کو بلند کیا اور کہا:آجاو اس تلوار سے میرا سر اپنے چچا کے لئے لے جائو. اس نے پوچھا تم کون ہو؟ کہا : میں اسد اللہ الغالب ، على ابن ابی طالب ہوں. اگر میرے سر کی وجہ سے خدا کے بندوں میں سے کسی کا دل شاد ہوتا ہے تو میں حاضر ہوں کہ میرا سر تمہارے چچا کی بیٹی کا حق مهر ہو جائے.جوان زور زور سے رونے لگا اور اْپؓ کے قدموں میں گر پڑا اور کہا: میں چاہتا ہوں کہ آج سے آپ کا غلام بن جائوں. اسی طرح فتاح بنام قنبر علی ابن ابی طالب کا غلام ہو گیا.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 18:54, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2018

Following three changes are requested:

1. Addition of following paragraph under 'In academia' (under 'Language use') just before a section begins on 'Arts and literature':

With the coined term 'Saraiki NLP', the evolution and development of Natural Language Processing (NLP) activities of Saraiki language have been classified in one of the proposed six categories for Corpus Development, Evolution, Machine Translation System (MTS), Phonetics, Script, and Social-Science, for a period of 200 years from 1818 to 2018.

2. Addition of following line as the last line under 'Phonology' section just before section on 'Vowels' begins.

The area of Phonetics has been found to be the most researched area for the Saraiki language over the past years.

3. Addition of following journal entry to References in support of the above two changes.

• Saini, Jatinderkumar R. (20 December 2018). "An Exhaustive Meta-analytical Study of the History, Evolution and Development of 'Saraiki NLP'". Revista InforComp (INFOCOMP Journal of Computer Science). 17 (2). Lavras, MG, Brazil: University of Lavras: 41–55. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help) Saini expert (talk) 18:34, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. Does it apply to this request? – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:40, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Please check your mail.--Saini expert (talk) 20:09, 21 December 2018 (UTC) Your response is awaited. --Saini expert (talk) 11:07, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

• Echo Jonesey95's query, if this is the case there's a different procedure, please see WP:COIEDIT. SITH (talk) 17:28, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
  • I don't think this is completely reliable. Leaving aside the misleading title, there are occasional errors: for example the way Smirnov's name is misspelt as "Samarnov". Nevertheless, this is very useful resource that can serve as a guide to the existing literature. I'll move it to the "external links" section; if anything, this is going to give it more prominence. – Uanfala (talk) 19:21, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

References

Saraiki is not a language, its dialects of Punjab

Saraiki is not a language, its dialects of Punjab. So please change name to Saraiki Dialect — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.160.97.145 (talk) 06:05, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

This has already been discussed. (Most recently, here.) If you want yet another change, you're welcome to ask for it, but your evidence and reasoning will have to persuade other editors. -- Hoary (talk) 06:16, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

East saraiki, Dispute status

We must add a line in lead to tell users that its Language status is contested widely and It is counted as dialect of Punjabi by many. I also do not agree to inclusion of eastern saraiki based on a single source not accepted by local speakers. We have to draw a line between controversial and claims. NOT TAKING SIDES. 103.199.217.2 (talk) 06:54, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

I've reverted your edits. The inclusion of the Eastern dialects is based on the same two sources as the rest of the dialects list: Wagha and Shackle (as stated in the footnote, they only differ on whether to count them as a single dialect or as the two distinct dialects of Jhangi and Shahpuri). The fact that most speakers of these dialects seem to identify with Punjabi rather than Saraiki is already mentioned in the text. You can't just remove the Eastern dialect/s, as that misrepresents the sources: we can't just pick-and-choose what we like from the published classifications. Of course, if you've got good, linguistically sound, sources discussing these dialects as belonging to Punjabi rather than Saraiki, feel free to use them in the text. As for the contested status, this is already mentioned in the relevant section, and to promote this to the lede and to strip it of its context (namely, that it's Punjabis that the contesting comes from) would give it undue weight. – Uanfala (talk) 11:00, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

I have seen article history there are so many sources which place saraiki as dialect of Punjabi, Let aside eastern saraiki which is Punjabi in hundreds of sources. You had been saraiki activist removing all past sources and PICKING AND CHOOSING. I am being more neutral by not removing language status but a small line in the lead is very essential when millions of people do not see it as a separate language including many linguist. At least learn to be neutral you spoiling human. 2nd Eastern saraiki is there any local currency ? No then based on only two individual research you are ignoring locals who are the best judge where their dialect stands. They better know is it close to punjabi or saraiki. Because they speak it and communicate with other people in punjab. So try your revenge game with language expert on some other plate forum. you looser chap. 103.199.217.2 (talk) 04:10, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Personal attacks are not tolerated at Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. If you can't participate in a civil manner, you will not be welcome to edit here. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:23, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

103.199.217.2, if you have reliable sources supporting your view, feel free to bring them up here. The language/dialect issue has been discussed extensively in the past, particularly in the threads in this archive. Again, the category of the eastern dialects is part of the linguistic classification, and that doesn't match the pattern of local names and identities. If we can, we should strive to represent both: the little paragraph you've removed already doid as much. If you have a constructive proposal for how that can be done better, feel free to make it. – Uanfala (talk) 11:29, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Video

The girl in video, speaking Bhawalpuri-Boli dialect of Saraiki, has a weak accent. She even used Punjabi, Hindi and English words in between. I think that this video does not represents Saraiki-language properly and should be removed until a new video is uploaded representing Saraki-language properly. Wikieditor6699 (talk) 20:27, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

In principle, there's nothing wrong with giving examples of non-typical speech (after all, she's probably representative of the Saraiki spoken by the remaining minority in India). However, that would only make sense in a wider context, like if there were several video clips for different varieties of Saraiki. If it's just one of them, there is a strong expectation that it will be representative for typical or standard Pakistani Saraiki. So yeah, you can go ahead and remove the video? – Uanfala (talk) 23:25, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

No reason not to keep the vid. In (South) Pakistani Punjab, Seraiki speakers mix Urdu words in their spoken language so it makes sense that a Seraiki speaker in Indian Punjab would mix a few Hindi words in there. AND there were a good amount who migrated out of Pakistan in and after 1947 to Indian Punjab. Vid is fine here and a new one can be added alongside it showing Seraiki the way it is spoken in Multan. Zakaria ښه راغلاست (talk) 03:37, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

"North Sindhi" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect North Sindhi and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 4#North Sindhi until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:31, 4 May 2022 (UTC)