Talk:Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 Sparviero/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

More than a stub but wants building. Who's got the meaty stuff on this bird? SDasey 12:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Misfortunes of Sparvieros section

This section is really un-encyclopedic trivia. Is there any justification for keeping a vauge list of unfortunate incidents that occured to SM79s? Nigel Ish 22:04, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

No, but Nigel, be prepared... FWIW Bzuk 04:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC).

Welcome to the party Nigel, this one could go on for a while! There is much that could go and the problem is knowing where to draw the line, so perhaps it would be "advisable" to move it (and a lot more) to another linked page/s just to err on the safe side. BTW, thanks for saving me the trouble of polishing my own efforts.--Red Sunset 05:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

In what sense do you find 'unenciclopedic' this section? And yes ,there is a justification: they happened, whetever you say about.--Stefanomencarelli 10:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The section appears to be merely a random list of events that happened to SM.79s or to units operating the Sparviero. These events do not appear to be particularly significant to either the history of the aircraft or the overall history of the Spanish Civil War or of World War II. Remember - Wikipedia is meant to be an encyclopedia, and events discussed should be notable. Much of the section sits very poorly in an encyclopedia article about the SM.79 - if it belongs anywhere, it belongs in articles about the units that were operating the aircraft - and even there would need considerable clean-up - some of the section is barely comprehensable - what exactly does "The scaramancy was often a problem with the early phase of aviation" actually mean??? Nigel Ish 16:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Exactly what you have read. In Wikipedia there are thousands of pages enriched by Trivia section. I found your critics silly because i don't see why in Sparviero page there should be not place for 'trivia'. First i would see disappears trivia from zillions pages, then hear critics like you post here. It's really 'strange' that after all the work made here it's the only comment i must have: a critic about a trivia section in an article of Wiki, the 200.000th that has one.--Stefanomencarelli 16:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, i forget to say that: thanks to show me in any manner as possible, the 'gratitude' for the efforts i make to develope as i can these articles. my tired fingers really wouldn't deserve nothing best than this.--Stefanomencarelli 10:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Remember Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information (see [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not|WP:NOT]}) - this is an official policy of English Wikipedia. The manual of style states (WP:TRIV) that Trivia sections are to be avoided. There may be a lot of pages on Wikipedia with Trivia sections, but there is a continual drive to trim down and remove these sections, or integrate them with the rest of the article. Just look at all the articles at AFD which are proposed because they are lists of trivia.

Please note that none of the above is meant as a personal attack. The aim is to improve the article. I raised this section on the talk page because clearly deletion of the section would be a signifcant change. Nigel Ish 17:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

---

One, i don't rate 'an indiscriminate collection of information' because if nothing else they are placed in a proper paragraph. Two, i still failed to see where is the holy need to scrap trivia. Three, my dear, what i found in other articles, in wich NOBODY has said one word, are bright examples of NNSNADPPAéPOV like this below:

At a cost of five gallant ships and hundreds of brave men "Taffy 3," aided by her own planes and those of "Taffy 2," sank three enemy cruisers, seriously damaged several other ships, and turned back the "most powerful surface fleet which Japan had sent to sea since the Battle of Midway." Domination of the skies, superior seamanship, and prudent, timely maneuvers helped to nullify the overwhelming odds. In the highest tradition of naval service, the finest qualities of the American sailor became commonplace during the heroic fight. Devotion to duty, daring courage, uncommon bravery, and an indomitable spirit were part and parcel of this victory.

So don't cause me LOL in so indecent manner. Before break my ..... i wuold see 'how' this stuff above can be counted in wikipedia. I would remark, my dear anglo-saxon friends, that this piece is what could be called shameless agiography and pubblicity for US Navy.

Perhaps this don't bother you, because you are US or close friend of them, but as not-anglosaxon i am really pissed off to read this stuff that seems became directly by a J.Wayne movie (Note well that i love JW, he was a sincere apologyst of US, not an hipocrite that couver himself behind 'objective' claimings). So, all considered that in all i wrote about italian stuff i never failed to remark defects and defeats , you can just image i feel your 'critics'.

And as my objectivy, you can see accounts of airbattles, in wich i could simply posted the italian claimings and be sure of nobody contested them, every if their claims are shamelessy false (ex. 12 P-38 vs 1 MC.202). As S.79 Sparviero, i would even remark, my dears that until me it was posted the shamelessy false datas about almost 800,000t sunk by italian torpedo-bombers. Now are around 90.000. So judice my work, but not with the manner you use usually.--Stefanomencarelli 22:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Some perspective

The article at present is now 57 kilobytes long. Here are some comparable statistics on other Wikipedia aircraft articles:

• B-52 Stratofortress: 46 kilobytes long
• de Havilland Mosquito: 44 kilobytes long
• F-86 Sabre: 41 kilobytes long
• F-15 Eagle: 35 kilobytes long.
• B-29 Superfortress: 34 kilobytes long
• Hawker Hurricane: 34 kilobytes long
• Messerschmitt Me 262: 33 kilobytes long
• De Havilland Comet: 31 kilobytes long
• Gloster Meteor:30 kilobytes long
• de Havilland Vampire: 27 kilobytes long
• Fokker Dr.I: 24 kilobytes long
• Wright Flyer: 24 kilobytes long

FWIW: the article continues to grow. Bzuk 12:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC) .

References

The cite template has a special line to indicate what language the reference is in, if it is not in English. I guess that some of the references here are in Italian, but I think that it would be good practice to include the relevant language with the citation. Would it be good to have more references in English here on the English wiki? Snowman 19:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there should be some additional verifiable reference sources. Since there is no means to verify some of the more obscure Italian magazine references, at least if there was a clear indication that the work can be traced back to a page number, that would remove a bit of a doubt about the source of the statements. BTW, I usually see the (in Italian) [or (in French), (in German) or other], note placed on reference sources. Yeaman work on this editing job! FWIW Bzuk 19:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC).

Why does none of the book citations in this article include which page the citation is from? I thought this was common pratice. Manxruler 14:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

The editor who provides some of these inline references can not or will not provide the page numbers, see: [1], but these are necessary. FWIW Bzuk 14:26, 2 November 2007 (UTC).

I see... Well, just thought I should comment on it in case someone had misunderstood. Afterall, this isn't the first time I've seen citations on Wikipedia without page numbers, and/or publishing year, just the name of the author. It seems quite a few people chose to leave out a lot of data. Those references are almost useless, really. Manxruler 15:46, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, 'almost useless' is a Big word, to be fair. I gave over ten references, so it's not exactly true equip them to a 'non existent reference'. Moreover, just look to some articles like AA-2 Atoll, totally lacking even one single source. But since i did not write it, nobody apparently cares. The same for another million articles, perhaps.

All you or someone else have to do is 1-grab the magazine number i gave 2-look in the summary where is the article 3-read it and see, among the 4-5 page lenght average, where is the stuff needed. Last day i lost around one hour to put all the citations pages, and i am pretty sure that these page numbers will never used by anyone to check them, and even in this case, he will waste just 30 secs to find the stuff needed.

Seriously, i understand this in a book, but in a 5 page articles, it's really 'so' important? I could do it, but hell, this need me another two hours to be fair.--Stefanomencarelli 18:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

That was a general observation on page-less citations on Wikipedia, not yours specifically. I simply commented the fact that many give imcomplete references. A ref is a ref, they should always include page numbers. It doesn't take any longer to do, I just look at the page in front of me and note the page number. And I wasn't talking about page numbers in the literature list at the end of the article, I meant in the footnotes. Page numbers are unnecessary in the bibliography. Specific page numbers for specific citations within the text of the article, like I did when I added info from Lyman's book to this article. Manxruler 19:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

That way, one can see which pages from which book/magazine are used in specific parts of the text. Bibliography page numbers only tell people that the pages have been used somewhere in the article, not where. Manxruler 19:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Well done, exactly what I was talking about. Well done indeed. I'll just delete the page numbers from the Bibliography since you have inserted them into the text now. Good job. Manxruler 19:19, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Now that is more like it! The citations now fit well into the text and the bibliography is also better presented. Congrats, everyone! FWIW Bzuk 22:29, 2 November 2007 (UTC).

Answers and disclaimers

I am very sorry, but there 'obscure references' are not obscure at all to me nor to italian press. The problem, sorry, it's your, not my guilth that there is not so many published works in english about stuff like S.79. When we talk about B-29 we (italians) must thrust on anglo-saxon sources, right? So don't make this thumb statements: if you don't thrust on what i write, you can even buy the older numbers of these magazines: perhaps anglo-saxon world once time will discouver that there is also someone else that write history.

Yes, Mrs Graziani is actually Marschall Rodolfo Graziani.

And now this: (I'm coming to the conclusion that there is waaaay too much detail here, considering the it.Wiki SM.79 article is only 1/3 the size). Still another provocation by Bzuk.

Well, let's see how wiki.it and wiki.en compared in other pages:

Spitfire: Wiki.en, 50,598 bytes Witki.it 21.324 byte (around) 2,5 TO 1

P-39:Wiki.en, 37,672 bytes , wiki.it 12.199 byte: 3 TO 1

P-38: Wiki.en, 60,268 bytes, Wiki.it 18.642: 3,3 TO 1.

P-47: Wiki.en, 40,563 bytes. Wiki.it 12.443 byte: 3,3 TO 1.

P-51: Wiki.en, 75,841 bytes wiki.it 21.842 byte : 3,5 TO 1

B-17: Wiki.en, 99,664 bytes Wiki.it 11.345 byte: 8 TO 1

Avro Lancaster: wiki.en, 40,497 bytes, Wiki.it, 4.676 byte: 9:1

B-24: Wiki.en, 43,920 bytes, Wiki.it 3.591 byte: 12 TO 1.

Note well that i make contributions in Spitfire, P-38, P-38, P-39, P-51 P-47. Not in B-24, Lancaster and B-17. With all i think it's blatalanty clear the nonsense of the Bzuk statements. I still ask apoligies for his insinuations.--Stefanomencarelli 13:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Maiden flight

According to this the prototype (SM.79P I-MAGO) first flew 2 October 1934, not September 28, while this claims it was on 8 October 1934. Which is correct? Drutt 14:19, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

According to the July 84 issue of Air International (p. 26) first flight was on 8 October. World Enclyclopedia of Military Aircraft by Angelucci and Matricardi gives October 1934 (without the precise date.Nigel Ish (talk) 23:55, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

John Stroud in "Wings of Peace" in the October 1990 issue of Aeroplane Monthly also gives 8 October.Nigel Ish (talk) 00:37, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

South African use

South Africa captured a number of SM.79s in Addis Ababa,and took them into service as transport aircraft http://issuu.com/mechinf/docs/madame_babalero. There seem to have been at least six, but I am trying to confirm that.Grant McKenna (talk) 06:02, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 Sparviero/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

some flattering and complimentary declarations about the airplane, but not much else. M Van Houten 05:39, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 05:39, 14 February 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 05:31, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Grammar mistakes

Sorry, thought I was undoing my own accidental deletion - no "edit war" intended!

'They were too large to allow them to evade detection by enemy defences, and resulted in heavy aircrew losses.'

The grammatical mistake is obvious. I would like to revert it to 'They were too large to allow them to evade detection by enemy defences, and the large crew requirements resulted in heavy human losses.'Tomseattle (talk) 04:07, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Irondome, I'd like to fix the plural/singular mismatches in 'The Sparvieri were already obsolete and phased out of service in bomber Wings and its intended successors, the SM.84 and Z.1007, were a failure, while the latter were not produced in enough numbers.'

Tomseattle Hi Tom, no problems at all, I have had that happen to me before too ;) it's a pain. You go right ahead. Cheers, Simon. Irondome (talk) 22:07, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Greater Romania Campaign over Stalingrad 1941-1943 Savoia Marchetti

Hidden Multi-article text dumping

Greater Romania Campaign over Stalingrad 1941-1943 ....................... Preparations Source, Ministerul Fortelor Aerului R56 02478 BIBLOTECA 11.834/4, hence ,public domain,Library of Air Ministry of Romania, books?Aristiderazu (talk) 10:52, 9 February 2018 (UTC)Aristiderazu Romanian Aeronautic in 1935-1941 Chief of Romanian Air Ministry of Air Secretaey was named Engineer Nicolae Caranfil.These proposes a daring program of reorganising of the Aeronautics which would suite the needs and real financial possibilities of Greater Romania.Before him Radu Irimescu .The new plan was to have a total of 83 Squadrons,aviation and 41 companies of aero-stations letter of Engineer Caranfil to the Prime Minister at the time .. MR.Prime Minister Following the discussions we had with Mr.General Paul Angelescu , Minister of National Defence , at yor Mr.home , in the day of 24th of December 1936, seeing once more that the connectionwhich must therefore exist between leaders of departments of National Defence and of Air thus, and Navy cannot take place , due to the permanent animozity which Gral Paul Angelescu had always towards me , and of which cause I have never seen and do not see a way of acomplishing my urgent program of organising the Aeronautics and Navy,our underlyning , I have the honor to present to zou Sir my resignation from Government . With this occassion I thank you ,Mr.Prime Minister , for the conqur which zou Sir have always given to me , in all circumstances and please have my deepest gratitude..signed .Eng.N.Caramfil ............... 40 Bristol Blenheim and 12 Hawker Hurricanes(for dog fighting role), have been aquired by Romanian Air Ministry from Great Brittain , of which 37 have landed safely in Bucharest .In 1941 in Romania Campaign to Stalingrad ,these were used for long ricconaisance purpose ,equiped with two Bristol Mercury engine, each, of 825 Hp, speed 418Km/h, ceilling 8130mAristiderazu (talk) 16:20, 8 February 2018 (UTC)Aristiderazu .The Huricannes have all landed safely in Bucharest. In those political circumstances ,initially , the British have refused to aacept the order by Romanian State , oficially .Has though interveened unoficially ,Commandor.Av.Nicolau Constantin , Aero -attache to London then,1939, .Through connections with certain pollitical factours , he succeeds tochange the decission of the British Government.The matter have been discussed in the Room of Communes , too.Finally has been approved the delivery towards Romania of a number of 40 Bristol Blenheim which have arrived in the country in three batches .The romanian pilots have left for England in two groups .,the first group at 17th of August 1939, made up of ten flying pilots crews under the command of Cpt.Cdor.av.Georgescu Laurentiu .The second group under the command of Cpt.Cdor.av.Alecu Demetrescu leaves at 6th of September 1939. At 14th of September 1939 , a formation of fourteen planes , having as head of formation Lt.Cdor.av.Cristescu P.Ioan have left towards the country on the intinerary ..Oxford -Bristol-Caen-Nantes Bordeaux.At 15th of September they have flown from Bordeaux to Marseille ,and at 16th of September they have arrived at Milano.At 17th of September with an escale at Belgrad, have arrived at Bukarest only 13 planes .Number 4.plane with the crew made out of Lt.av.Nicolae Mirescu and maister/master Petre Todica , due to a torrential rain and to a visibility almost nulle , enter in lossing of speed when landing .They crush to the edge of Bordeaux Aerodrome.The plane goes on fire , and the crew sadly perish in flames. The other formation ,led by Cpt.Cdor .av.Alecu Demetrescu , have left England at 27th of September with direction Bordeaux , from where on the same intinerary , on which have flown the precedent batch , have arrived in Bucharest/Bukarest/Bucuresti at 10th of October 1939, with an escale at Milano of nine days. The last formations of planes leaves England at 15th of October 1939, under the command of Capt .Cdor.avLaurentiu Georgescu and arrives into the country at 18th of November 1939, in extremly difficult atmospheric conditions . At take off on Bordeaux erodrome , the plane piloted by Cpt.av.Dumitru Popescu -Pufi is accidented .Luckily the pilot escapes unharmed. In the last stage of flight of the said formation , the number 14 plane , piloted bz Adj.Chief av.Vasile Mezin , having colleague of flight Maestru/Master Enache, due to the very dense fogg, engages and crushes at Orsova .The crew perish in Danube River waters. Have arrived in the country 37 Bristol-Blenheim , instead of 40. At take off on Bordeaux erodrome , the plane piloted by Cpt.av.Dumitru Popescu -Pufi is accidented .Luckily the pilot escapes unharmed. In the last stage of flight of the said formation , the number 14 plane , piloted bz Adj.Chief av.Vasile Mezin , having colleague of flight Maestru/Master Enache, due to the very dense fogg, engages and crushes at Orsova .The crew perish in Danube River waters. Have arrived in the country 37 Bristol-Blenheim , instead of 40. From Germany have beenaquired *Romanian petrol being the exchange coin* starting with 1940 , 30 Heinkel 112*dog-fighting* planes , 32 twin engined Heinkel 111 planes *bombers* , 20 planes Ju 87 ,,Stukas,, *dive bombing role* , 50 Messerschmitt 109 E3 and E7*dog-fighting role* As to the plan, from France have been aquired , special autovehicles for airfields and equipment, from Germany heavy tonaje transport trucks Henschel , from Switzerland 20mm Oerrlikon cannons,the necessary of ammunition for airplanes and wirst watches ,necessary for the navigant personel .From United States autotrucks Ford Marmon with double tracktion , destined to the units of anty air defence .From Italy ,silk for parashutes , Beretta hand pistols for the navigant personell , tractors and buldozers for the Aero Pioneers Regiment and shit /foil for the campaign tents. Obtaining of these materials was beginning to come more and more difficult after 1st of September 1939 ,once the second part of the Mondial War started, the situation became critical. England,Belgium,Holland ,France have definitivelly stoped the shipments towards the Greater Romania,Germany and Italy have drastically reduced them.The Romanian Aeronautical Industry was in great difficulty of primery matters and semifabricated ones, hence raw materials .The situation had become thus critical. With the order nr.11349 from23rd of March 1940, the General Staff of Romanian Army ,asks to the Romanian Ministry of Air and Navy to pass at the latest 1st of April 1941 , to the integral execution of hzpotesis 32.Thus 84 different Squadrons with a total of 834 planes mono and twin engined within the operative units , to which were added 338 reserve airplanes and 350 airplanes for interior for school and training of the navigant personell.Thus , a total of 1517 aiplanes. The value of 32nd Hzpotesis rose up to 32 milliards Lei , at 1938 value,. Material Staff 1941 For long range reconaisance and light bombardment,,Bristol Blenheim,Bristol-Mercury twin engined ,825Hp,418km/h,ceilling 8310m, Potez 63, equiped with Gnome-Rhone 14M of 670Hp,425km/h,ceilling 8500m. For observation , IAR 38 , BMW,132-700Hp,220Km/h and IAR 39, equiped with IAR K/14 engine of 870Hp,280km/h,ceilling 7000m.Also in this category were included SET 7K ,with an IAR K7-120 of 420Hp,250km/h. , For bombing role Savoia Marchetti S79b.which were aso produced under license in Romaniawhich (),twin engined Gnome Rhone K14 and 1000 A and starting with July 1941 also Savoia Marchetti 79 B manufactured at IAR Brasov after the Italian license ,modified at IAR Power Plant , equiped with 2 Junkers 211 E and 211F of 1200Hp engine each and 1350 Hp , 3350Km/h,ceilling 8000m,PZL planes P-37B Los,manufactured in Poland , equiped with two engines Bristol Pegasus XII and Bristol Pegasus XX of 918Hp,440km/h,ceilling 6000m. The planes IAR 81 ,equiped with IAR K 14-1000A , of 1000Hp,500km/h,used for divebombing role ,, Junkers Ju 87 Stukas ,Junkers Jumo 211 D.a. of 1200Hp for dive bombing role ,385Km/h,ceilling 8000m,,planes Heinkel He 111 ,Karas and Bloch. For dog-fight IAR 80 ,IAR K 14 engine ,510km/h,,Messerschmitt Bf 109E,Daimler-Benz,1250Hp,520Km/h,ceilling 10500m,, planes PZL P 11 ,engine IAR K 9,600Hp,380Km/h,9000m,,PZL P24 planes ,engine IAR K 14 ,870Hp,430km/h,9500m,,planes Hawker Hurricane , Rolls -Royce ,1200Hp,500Km/h,11900m,planes Heinkel 112 ,400Km/h,10500m. For Hydroaviation Savoia Marchetti S 62 bis, with one engine I.F.Asso 800Hp,225Km/h and Kant Z 501 , engine Asso I.F.833 Hp,265Km/h planes. For transport planes Junkers 34, the three engined Junkers 52 ,Potez 56, Lockheed 14 and Lockheed 10. For connection and school planes Fleet F-10G.ICAR,Nardi-PWS,ST,Klemm K1 35D and Me 108 Taifun. Hence in 1941 ,there were 50 squadrons/Escadrile to 80 ...The 32 Plan ..................for missing text Aristiderazu (talk) 17:38, 11 February 2018 (UTC)Aristiderazu

Picture of gun position

One of the illustrations is titled "Internal view from one of the dorsal defensive position". The photo actually appears to show the nose of an SM.79B, but interestingly enough the gun looks very much like a British Vickers K with its pan magazine.--Death Bredon (talk) 09:54, 28 March 2018 (UTC)