Talk:Savuka

Sourcing

copied from User_talk:86.130.88.245 Hi there. You may have noticed that I reverted your edits at Savuka. While it is quite possible that the content you added was correct, and that you know more of the band than I do, the fact is that your additions were not verifiable, because you did not provide sources for most of it. Please do find sources that are reliable enough for Wikipedia, and I will be happy to reinstate the changes myself. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 01:58, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

copied from User Talk:Vanamonde93 Hello, I have read your post regarding your reversion of my edits to the Savuka page. As the sources I used for most of my edits are those that were already featured on the page (these are the sources currently featured in the members' section), is it your view that these references should be completely removed from the page then on account of dubious reliability? Regards, 86.130.88.245 (talk) 10:24, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

No, that isn't what I mean; but this is a discussion best had on the talk page of that article. I will copy our posts there momentarily. Vanamonde (talk) 10:26, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

What I mean is that even if sources already in the article are used, they needed to be cited explicitly. I'm a little puzzled by you saying you are using sources already in the article, actually, because I thought I had scoured those sources already; but it is possible. Nonetheless, when you added a discography,you didn't provide sources for its entries; and the sources for the chart positions look dodgy in the extreme. Why don't you read WP:RS and WP:CITEHOW; those pages are fairly helpful. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 10:32, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. The discography itself is actually taken from Johnny Clegg's personal page - I moved it over as this is the relevant page - but all of the other material is taken from sources that can currently be seen on the page - if you look at the difference between this page now and with my edits you'll find that all the sources I used in the history section are currently in the members' section - I haven't actually added any sources that weren't there before but utilised the ones that were already there (Savuka and its' predecessor band Juluka are both notoriously difficult to find decent citations for in my opinion) - hence my post on your talk page. Kind regards, 86.130.88.245 (talk) 20:28, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Also, in reverting my edits you've created an issue in the infobox, as members' are supposed to be listed first chronologically, and then alphabetically. Please see Template:Infobox musical artist for reference. Kind regards, 86.130.88.245 (talk) 20:31, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Okay, let's take this piece by piece. The discography is from Clegg's page, yes, but it is unsourced there as well. We should have a full discography, ideally, but it's difficult to find sources, as you say. The order in which musicians are presented in the infobox is an issues I was unaware of, and I have reinstated that part of your edit. As for the rest: can you point me to where Coplan and Taylor are that precise about the identity of the band members? And to where Jabu Mavuso is mentioned? Vanamonde (talk) 05:09, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not debating that those sources don't properly verify the things that you've removed - my point is that I think if we're going to be sceptical of the validity of those sources that they shouldn't be present at all. For example, take the source that currently sits next to Andy Innes' name in the members' section. This is a news article from 2014 which states that Innes was a 'veteran of Savuka' - that's 100% of the information that the 'source' provides to prove that Andy Innes was a 'member of Savuka'. It's sketchy to say the least and you'll be hard pressed to find any supporting evidence for this claim (at least I can't find any supporting evidence for this). Whilst it's true he did start performing with Johnny Clegg around this time he did so in a touring capacity and this is also true of any Savuka affiliation if there were any. He certainly didn't play on any of the albums (and I should know as I have them). I don't want to pick on this source alone as I think all of those sources in that section are pretty poor. I would argue the best thing for this page would be to a add a citation box to the top of the page and use sources predominantly from Discogs for information (not ideal I know but at least a more informative source than the ones we have at the moment). Kind regards, 86.130.88.245 (talk) 17:07, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

We're discussing two slightly different problems. Our policy on verifiability requires that content be supported by reliable sources, period; thus anything we add must be supported. So, again, if you find sources for your previous information, I'd be happy to add it. You are highlighting a different issue; that in a poorly studied area such as this, sources may contain questionable information. Under the circumstances, the best thing to do may be to simply remove Innes' name. I don't think Discogs is a very reliable source, though; don't they allow user-submitted content? As in, they are no more reliable than Wikipedia? Vanamonde (talk) 17:25, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Alas, I believe what you say is true about Discogs. I just can't see the difference in our arguments. From what I can tell there are few if any verifiable sources included in this page, so under Wikipedia rules most of them should be removed. The referenced books' are hard to verify due to how difficult it is to obtain copies of them. The strongest source included on the page by some margin is Randy Lewis' article for the L.A. Times on the sad and untimely passing of Dudu Zulu as we can cross-reference this with plenty of other sources as it was a fairly widely reported incident, one that Johnny Clegg even spoke of himself on many occasions (if any decent reference to radio interviews could be obtained). This whole page is tricky. Kind regards, 86.183.108.108 (talk) 20:57, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

You're right about it being tricky. The lack of sourcing is a pity, because the topic is fascinating. I'm busy at the moment, but will remain on the lookout for sources, and maybe someday I'll be able to take this to GAN. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 04:47, 4 October 2017 (UTC)