Talk:Saxon Fratricidal War

Translation discussion

If anyone has anything to say about the translations in this article please do so here. So far I think "Saxon Brother War" is the best term for the Sächsischer Bruderkrieg. --Banime (talk) 22:49, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Additional translations may include "Saxon Fratricidal War". --Banime (talk) 23:52, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I created a redirect from Saxon Fratricidal War to here, discuss if you'd like it to be included more, or for that to be the title, etc. --Banime (talk) 21:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I strongly object to Wikipedia creating names for things. If this war has no name in English it ought to be either (i) titled by its German title, if that's legitimately found in the German literature, or (ii) titled "Saxon civil war" or "Civil war in Saxony (1446–1451)" or something to that effect, a purely descriptive title. So, is there an English term for this war found in the English literature? Srnec (talk) 21:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I believe I've seen both used, let me look around for sources and we can figure out the best name. You're right, perhaps if theres no direct translation we can use the german name instead (right now it redirects to it I think.. if not I'll add a redirect right now. --Banime (talk) 21:20, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I added the German redirect. --Banime (talk) 21:21, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

The more I looked at it, I can't find any right now except for [1] which says its Saxon Fratricidal War. However I'm not sure of the reliability of that source. As well, the "exact" translation would most likely be Saxon Fratricidal War, I swear I've heard it both ways though. If people are in favor of the German way discuss here please. --Banime (talk) 21:44, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

That website you linked to is that of a museum, the Museum Leuchtenburg. I trust we take their translation as "academic". We should use "Saxon Fratricidal War". Srnec (talk) 03:32, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay, we can use that. However, that is the only source I could find so far that said it. I believe it IS the most literal translation though. Bruderkrieg means more fratricidal war than brother war. Does anyone have more sources? If no one can dig anything up in a while I'll change it to Saxon Fratricidal War and keep the discussion open just in case. --Banime (talk) 11:06, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

After doing some extensive searching at GoogleBooks and coming up with nothing, I decide dto move the page. We can, of course, continue to search for a better title if one exists, but the prospects don't look good. Srnec (talk) 03:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, as of now this seems like the best solution. Further discussion is welcome. --Banime (talk) 10:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the pl.wp page title translates as "Civil war in Saxony"... Shimgray | talk | 11:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting. Well so far I think the most literal translation is Saxon Fratricidal War. Anymore sources with Civil war in Saxony? Also, an unrelated note but I may be starting other articles about German history with mostly German sources that haven't made it to the english wikipedia yet, when deciding on names would you like me to contact you both or any other editors to get the best translation/decision for the name? --Banime (talk) 16:09, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

If an event has no English name, just use a good, economical, unambiguous English description. In this case, that would be "Civil war in Saxony (1446–1451)", it tells us all we need to know to identify the subject and nothing we don't. Srnec (talk) 20:43, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

This seems a pretty good idea - it's fairly self-explanatory. Our only significant English source is Carlyle, and if he doesn't name it, then it seems reasonable to conclude there isn't an accepted "proper name". Shimgray | talk | 14:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I'm going to look a bit more into it before I reject the most literal translation though - the literal german translation is Saxon Fratricidal War and makes sense in this case, so I'd rather err towards this. It's not exactly a civil war, is it? Can we define it that way, I'm not sure? I'll keep looking into it as I think the literal translation is best, at least for right now until we search a bit more. --Banime (talk) 14:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

We have a museum website that uses "Saxon Fratricidal War" for its translation. I think a museum is "academic", even if it's a small, insignificant museum. We are justified in using the current title, but if a better one is found, go for it. Srnec (talk) 22:07, 6 December 2008 (UTC)