Talk:Scientific socialism

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 September 2020 and 22 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mbiskach.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 08:47, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

untitled

i am writing an article on this scientific socialism and i cant find anything to give me informaion can anyone help me?

Copy vio

The sections on "class and alienation" and "economics" seem to have been taken from this site. I've removed these sections.--Bkwillwm 07:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Who's on first?

Proudhon uses the phrase as early as 1840 in What is Property? and one commentary (by Robert Graham) says he borrowed the phrase from Saint-Simeon. Jacob Haller 03:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Pierre Joseph Proudhon definitely used it before Engels had used it in, as you said, his "What is Property?" The authors Lucien van der Walt and Michael Schmidt note that "[t]he term scientific socialism was, indeed, coined by Proudhon." (Black Flame: The Revolutionary Class Politics of Anarchism and Syndicalism, pg. 88). Claiming that it was Engels who used the term first is wrong, and this should be corrected. The Long Memory — Preceding undated comment added 21:34, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Corrected. 14.200.69.243 (talk) 10:53, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Back Matter

At best, the thing which up until this time has been referred to as "scientific socialism" is at most a notion or sketch for same. Theorizing based on observation is one thing and even this is done in orthodox Marxism in a way which is hardly scientific or even theorizing and instead is largely a matter of polemics. Even if it were a theorizing based on observation, it still wouldn't be science as currently commonly defined without closing the loop by testing and verifying such theories. See also psychohistory (the fictional subject) that matches the intent of the noun phrase. 96.243.13.36 (talk) 14:32, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Signing with named identity. Lycurgus (talk) 21:15, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Merge Scientific Communism into this article

The much shorter article Scientific Communism should be merged into this article. MaxPont (talk) 08:47, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I would say delete Scientific Communism entirely there's nothing to merge, what actual content is there can move as a cleaned up mention of the treatment of scientific socialism in the former Soviet Union, China, Cuba, etc. Lycurgus (talk) 14:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

You are right. The article should be deleted and a redirect to this article should be added. MaxPont (talk) 08:17, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I would put off a merge. It looks like these are two different things: One is a concept put forth by Engels and the other pertains to the Soviet Union. It doesn't look like these have a close enough relationship to justify a merge.--Bkwillwm (talk) 00:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I am curious as to why National Socialism isn't included here? 72.223.121.165 (talk) 09:46, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

If you mean that of Germany in the prior century, probably because it's irrelevant. There were some communalist elements of the Nazi regime that are a basis for its being considered a far right socialism but these certainly don't extend to the concept of scientific socialism which would have been advocated by the German Communists but these were considered arch enemies of and by the Nazis and the Nazi economy was as capitalistic as any other Fascist system. 72.228.150.44 (talk) 06:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Also reiterating my initial response to this thread, Scientific Communism is an embarrassing error of an editors perception, knowledge, whatever; the subject of this article is the sole actual common subject. 72.228.150.44 (talk) 07:42, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Retracting above, added link to Scientific Communism with context which is the easiest resolution. 72.228.150.44 (talk) 19:11, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I recently scanned an English-language Soviet book titled What Is Scientific Communism? which states (p. 21), "The concepts of 'scientific socialism' and 'scientific communism' mean one and the same thing: the scientific theory of the ways of building socialism and gradual transition to communism." I think it would make more sense to keep the existing article on scientific socialism, but also include a section on the term "scientific communism" and its use in the USSR and some other countries, since it is very largely talking about the same subject. --Ismail (talk) 06:24, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Siad Barre

Removed

Siad Barre, socialist leader of the Somali Democratic Republic, proclaimed Somali Revolutionary Socialist Partyscientific socialism as the national ideology as a repudiation of atheistic Soviet-style socialism.

because although there is an indication at Somali Revolutionary Socialist Party that it had or has Islamist elements, other than the lip service some Marxists pay to the term, there's no reason to believe this has a particular association with the subject. 72.228.150.44 (talk) 06:45, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Trotsky

PLease do not add false information into Wikipedia. Trotsky does not define scientific socialism as "conscious expression of a historical process". If you pick something in the internets, this does not mean it is correct. Take Trotsky's book and see yourself. - Altenmann >talk 16:08, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

@Altenmann There is no false information. You have not clearly read the cited pages and checked the source properly. Please do not assert claims of bad faith.

He states on pg 138

"Scientific socialism is the conscious expression of the unconscious historical process; namely the instinctive and elemental drive of the proletariat to reconstruct society on communist beginnings".

You can dispute the interpretation of the source and suggest amendments but none of the information cited is false. I think the only obvious error is a typo omission of the word "unconscious" but that is lifted from the listed page.

Also, obtain consensus from other users before unilaterally reverting areas of dispute. WikiUser4020 (talk) 18:16, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

In the book that I have Leon Trotsky My Life the text says "Marxism considers itself the conscious expression of the unconscious historical process" Which book are you using? What year? ISBN? Also, I do not have to have consensus to remove false information. - Altenmann >talk 18:22, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

@Altenmann You did not bother to check the source at all. There is no false information. The book I am citing is "In Defence of Marxism" published by Wellfred Books, March 2019. You are confusing the cited book with his self-autobiography. The google link is also featured in the main page but you can access it there:

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/In_Defence_of_Marxism/r52JwwEACAAJ?hl=en

IBSN: 9781913026035, 1913026035

You should seriously check the source carefully before making any accusations as it reflects poorly on your ability as a user. WikiUser4020 (talk) 18:26, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, I checked Trotsky, but didnt pay attention which book. - Altenmann >talk 18:36, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

@Altenmann No problem. We can draw this thread to a swift close. WikiUser4020 (talk) 18:39, 26 March 2024 (UTC)