Talk:Scott Brown (footballer, born June 1985)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Clavdia chauchat (talk · contribs) 12:37, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

First time reviewer, I hope this will be of some assistance even if it isn't perfect!

This article is improving steadily, but in my opinion it needs more work before it becomes a Good Article.

Prose

I noticed a few typos including "enegetic" and "combatitive". Obviously that's only a small thing, but it needs to go through a spellchecker. The quality of the prose itself seems pretty good. I checked some old revisions and someone has been through it with a view to cleaning up the prose, taking out "also," "however" etc. which is good. The personal life section still consists of three very short paragraphs all beginning "Brown..." In the early career section it should be "played for Rangers' youth team" (ie youth team belonging to Rangers) or "the Rangers youth team".

MOS

Some (minor) issues too: Since there is somebody else at Scott Brown, I would put a disambiguation thingy at the top of this page. Number of goals is written as seven in 08/09 but 3 in 07/08 and 4 in 10/11 - this should be consistent. Stuff only needs to be linked the first time it appears (Willie McKay, Champions League, France, Kevin Thomson).

Ok work has started on improving the article and I think the prose and MOS issues have been cleared up. Adam4267 (talk) 21:21, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

References

This seems all in order, well referenced. No original research.

Broad in Coverage

Here I think is where the article mainly falls down. It's still much shorter than other footballer GAs and, as such, can't really be comprehensive. I'm not too familiar with Brown but having looked through the sources I'd make a few suggestions:

• Expand the single sentence early career section. Where did he go to school? Was he attached to any other youth teams? Play any other sports? This John Park guy crops up in other refs at Hibernian and Celtic - is he relevant? If so, explain; otherwise take his name out.

• He was most expensive transfer between Scottish teams since Duncan Ferguson went for £4m many years before, it might be relevant to point that out.

• When he was out of favour with the national team for 18 months after his debut, who was being picked instead of him? What competitions did he play in with the U21s, or the U19s? What level was he first capped at?

• This feud with El Hadji Diouf seems to take up a lot of space in the sports pages - I'd suggest it needs to be at least touched upon in the article. One of the Rangers guys said effectively that they didn't like Brown and they'd be targeting him in the next match. Perhaps that's normal in Scotland (!) but to an outsider it seems notable.

• The FIFA one to watch article mentions a £9m bid from Portsmouth and other sources talk about bids from Newcastle and Tottenham. If these can be reliably sourced then why not put them in?

There is a discrepancy between the excessive detail of his performances for Celtic (describing goals against St Mirren and Hearts) and the lack of other info which might reasonably be included.

I think you are correct here, there is a bit of a lack of information in some areas (personal life and early career) but I will try and find something. I will work on improving the other areas in the next few days. Adam4267 (talk) 21:27, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay over the last few days me and Jmorrison have been working to improve the article and I think that all of these issues have been resolved. Adam4267 (talk) 00:15, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality

With most football articles it is hard to be neutral as the players obviously have great attributes etc. to be playing at the level they are at. Here I would say that all the praise is attributed to reliable sources which is good. Reading between the lines of some of the sources though, Brown is very injury prone and has a discipline problem. Perhaps that needs to be summarised/clarified and referenced appropriately in the article.

It's hinted at in the article and sources that Brown was rubbish in his first campaign at Celtic: he was dropped for Barry Robson and Paul Hartley, then had to "reinvent himself" the next season. Much further down the article it mentions his sister's illness/death. Without resorting to WP:OR I don't think it's a stretch to say the two things might be related. Can this be supported with references?

One other thing: "He was often used on the right of midfield, due to the form of other central midfielders such as Beram Kayal, Joe Ledley and Ki Sung-Yueng" makes it sound like he was shunted out on the wing to accommodate these other players. It's not clear whether the other players are all just better than him, or Brown is versatile enough to perform equally well out wide. You have to register to be able to check the Herald source too.

This might just be my own lack of understanding though!

I agree with your first statement, he has been criticised a lot. Especially in the 2009-10 season. I'm not sure if he is injury "prone" but that is something that needs to be looked into. I'm not really sure if this is appropriate for Style of play though. He is also seen as being quite aggresive and fiery so that should be emphasised more in Style of play.

I don't really agree with this he did play 48 times that season although only scored three goals. It was only really the last month that Robson and Hartley played. Generally 2009-10 is thought to be his worst season, to be fair he was injured for a lot of it and the team wasn't playing well.

Celtic usually play 3 central midfielders and 1 winger under Neil Lennon. Brown is the most comfortable on the right (Ledley on the left), while the other two don't really play on the wings. During last season Kris Commons/Paddy McCourt/Shaun Maloney usually played on the left and Ledley and Kayal played in the center. IMO Brown is a better right winger than Ledley is a left so he is better to play on the wing. I'm not really sure how this could be phrased in the article but there must be sources out there which talk about this. Sorry the Herald isn't easily accesible I will look for more sources this is the excerpt BTW The defeats of Hearts, Rangers and Aberdeen showed that Lennon and his coaches have worked diligently on the team’s shape and increasing the tempo of its play. The shifting of Scott Brown to a wider position has also been vindicated. Brown’s energy and will can stifle opposition attacks down his flanks and instigate moves on his side’s behalf. Ledley, Kayal and Ki look the best contenders for a central pairing, but Brown offers the option of a wide man in a midfield three or four. Adam4267 (talk) 21:43, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I added some criticism to the style of play section (passing ability, discipline and lack of goals) as well as attempting to explain why he was moved to the right. He was often used on the right of midfield, partly due to the form of other central midfielders such as Beram Kayal, Joe Ledley and Ki Sung-Yueng, but also because Brown is more able to play in wide areas than them.[86] Adam4267 (talk) 00:20, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Stability

Not subject to edit wars but still growing and subject to substantial additions and improvements since being nominated.

Images

A couple of very nice pics from flickr, properly tagged. As the article expands I'm sure more can be found too.

Overall

I think there are one or two minor things which can be ironed out no problem. But parts, especially the early career, personal life and style of play sections, need quite a radical expansion to get to GA standard. Clavdia chauchat (talk) 14:30, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I think you've made a nice job of the improvements between the two of you, well done. There's just one or two very small details that I've noticed - iron these out and I'll be happy to pass the article:

• received is e.i. not i.e. "i before e, except after c."
• After the match Brown apologised to the Celtic fans for the team's performance and stated that it was the players, and not the managers, fault that Celtic had lost. At least one apostrophe missing here. Or you could put a full stop after performance and then say something like: "He felt responsibility for the defeat lay with the players, rather than the manager."
• He pronounced himself 'happy' to stay at Hibs and scoring the first goal of the Levein "era". It's not clear whether these words in the quotation marks are actually quotes or being used to express irony. I can't see them in the sources. Intended or not, it gives the impression that he wasn't happy to stay at Hibs and that Levein's spell in charge won't amount to an era!
• The pictures just added are good but isn't there some rule about not starting a section with a left-aligned image? I may be mistaken on this, but I would move the one of him playing Basel down a bit, just to break up the Celtic section.
• The Celtic section is now a pretty daunting wall of text. I'd be tempted to break down at least the second-to-last mega-paragraph.

Again, thanks and well done. A lot of work's gone in here. Clavdia chauchat (talk) 18:30, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok the first 4 things have been done and I took a sentence out of the mega-paragraph. I'm not really sure what more I could take out of it, the Diouf/Bartley stuff covers 4 lines and that would be my preference, but I doubt I could squeeze much out of it. Adam4267 (talk) 18:56, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I might be inclined to just break it in half, rather than take stuff out. But overall I think the article is there or thereabouts now so I've passed it. Thanks for all your hard work! I usually stick to women's football articles - if in future I can be of any assistance with the women's articles on the Scotland/Celtic FC taskforces then please drop me a note. Clavdia chauchat (talk) 09:10, 9 October 2011 (UTC)