Talk:Scottish Canadians

Scotland Portal

The Scotland Portal is now up and running. It is a project in the early stages of development, but I think it could be a very useful resource indeed, perhaps more for general readers (the vast majority I presume), rather than committed editors, who may be more attracted by the great possibilities of the notice board format: Wikipedia:Scottish Wikipedians' notice board.

Give it a Watch, and lend a hand if you can. It is (hopefully) fairly low-maintenance, but if we run with the "News" section, that will take dedication: time which I cannot commit to presently myself. Most other boxes need replacment/update only weekly, fortnightly, or monthly, plus the occasional refreshment of the Scotland-related categories. Anyway, I assume this is how the other Portals are run, so we can follow their lead.

Please add the following code - {{portalpar|Scotland}} - to your own User page, and you will have the link to the portal right there for easy access. I will investigate how other portals use shortcuts too.

Assistance from Wikipedians in the rest of the world would be greatly appreciated!--Mais oui! 09:20, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

copied from Talk:Canadians of Scottish descent by Mr. Absurd (talk) 06:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Notable Scottish Canadians....

This list is and will be vast and needs suborganization by field, province, etc. Scots are the dominant social/cultural group in CAnadian history, even though the English are more numerous; in politics, business, culture and more, there's lots of notables in all provicnes; and sooner or later people are going to add them all; so some thought on how to organize this in the layout-concept here seems needed.Skookum1 14:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

copied from Talk:Canadians of Scottish descent by Mr. Absurd (talk) 06:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Scott MacDonald

The "Scott MacDonald" listed here as a freedom fighter links to a Scott MacDonald in the band "The Spoons". I'm guessing this isn't correct. 205.206.131.152 22:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

copied from Talk:Canadians of Scottish descent by Mr. Absurd (talk) 06:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, the picture of the woman said to be Loreena McKennitt in the sidebar is actually Joni Mitchell (I believe). Neither is listed in the notable Scottish Canadians section, so I'm not sure which woman, if not both, is a Scottish Canadian. --108.27.102.59 (talk) 17:35, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

That is, indeed, Joni Mitchell above Loreena McKennitt's name. I'm not sure how to fix it, but someone should. Joechip123 (talk) 02:40, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Update

This page is in need of an update can any scottish Canadian wikipedians assist? (Blacksands 10:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)).

copied from Talk:Canadians of Scottish descent by Mr. Absurd (talk) 06:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Assessment

I have assessed this as B Class, although it needs inline citations, and of mid importance, as I feel that the topic plays a strong role in the understanding of the history of Canada. Cheers, CP 03:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

copied from Talk:Canadians of Scottish descent by Mr. Absurd (talk) 06:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Just pick a title and stick with it please!

Don't make three copies of every article. Use redirects! Kevlar67 09:11, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Three articles with the same subject matter is stupid. Please choose one. Celtic Harper (talk) 23:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Merge. Any title will do for me. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Merged under Scottish Canadian. Mr. Absurd (talk) 05:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Additions

Hi. Just added the statistically important numbers for self-reported Scottish heritage as single responses. Interestingly, in Quebec and New Brunswick, these values sort the provinces differently in relation to eachother. This is likely because of the contemporary influence of Galicization or the climate of nationalization of non-Anglophone Canadians as distinct ethnic groups.

I also added Alistair MacLeod to the famous Scots-Canadians. Don't know how he was overlooked!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.216.227.191 (talk) 04:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The Fur Trade, Metis and Anglo-Metis Populations

This article could use a large section on the integral role of Scots in the fur trade (in both the Hudson's Bay Company and North West Company, as well as the resulting Anglo-Metis population in Western Canada. These seem like pretty big omissions to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.233.112.142 (talk) 22:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

aboat - about pronounciation

In British Columbia, the word "about" is pronounced "aboat". Like in Scotland! The language patterns should get included into the article, by a professional linguist. 93.219.174.83 (talk) 20:16, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Photo arrangement

I've thought about arranging the photos in the display box but it's beyond my expertise at the moment (without messing up or taking enough shots on it). So my question is: is there a reason they're like that? I eat BC Fish (talk) 21:07, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Article’s title “Scottish Canadian”

One must wonder if this title is accurate, appropriate or necessary. While John Kenneth Galbraith was in New Delhi 1961-63 as John F. Kennedy’s American Ambassador to India he wrote the book he was proudest of til his life’s end, a decade ago at age 97: The Scotch. His London publisher objected: “That word is outdated and offensive,” to which he responded, “It’s by, about and for Scotch Canadians and that’s what we call ourselves.” The compromise: the British title was “The Non-potable Scotch.” But it didn’t fall away. I recently took a painting in to an art store in Brisbane, Australia, to have it mounted and framed. The framer had Gaelic accent and I mentioned to him that that was the first language in my family till the 1970s but we have a slightly different term for our ethnicity. He responded, “Oh, there are far more of us in Canada than in Scotland, and we follow their lead. We call ourselves ‘Scotch.’” Would it not be appropriate for the article’s title to reflect this? Masalai (talk) 09:29, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

For that matter, Tommy Douglas, who finally arrived permanently in Canada in 1918 when he was 14, always referred to himself as "Scotch," as demonstrated in election campaign broadcasts such as that presented by Pierre Burton.Masalai (talk) 19:52, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

All we can do is regurgitate what the sources say ..we cant fix past mistakesTHE CANADIAN ENCYCLOPEDIA ....Tanja Bueltmann; Andrew Hinson; Graeme Morton (2013). The Scottish Diaspora. Edinburgh University Press. p. 193. ISBN 978-0-7486-5062-0.... -- Moxy (talk) 22:43, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Isn't the ample coverage of Ken Galbraith and Tommy Douglas plenty to establish that the document's title should be "Scotch Canadian" rather than the Englishmen's term "Scottish"?? I had a medical doctor who had an ample Gaelic accent. I exclaimed to him that that was the first language of my family till the 1970s but we undoubtedly have a different term for our ethnicity. "Oh, I doubt that. Plenty more of us in Canada than in Scotland and we copy them: we call ourselves 'Scotch.'" .Masalai

My family has been "Scottish Canadian" since 1820. As they say in Scotland, "scotch" is what we drink, "Scots" or "Scottish" is who we are. Citing a minor work by a now-forgotten economist is not sufficient reason to change the title, which is entirely appropriate and generally accepted. Masalai's bizarre anecdote (which he/she attributes to either a doctor or a picture framer?) is similarly irrelevant. SerBronn (talk) 14:08, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Depends whether Gaelic-speaking Highlanders who were expelled during the Highland Clearances or Anglo-Saxon English speakers on the Lowlanders. .Masalai

File:John Kenneth Galbraith. The Scotch.jpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE5fOJfKRNk

Two of the most eminent Canadians who were decended from immigrants from Scotland or from there themselves were John Kenneth Galgraith and Tommy Douglas, both of whom referred to themselves not as "Scottish" but "Scotch." I refer you to Galbraith's 1964 book The Scotch and Douglas's Saskatchewan radio broadcasts. Galbraith's London publisher objected: "You mustn't use that term. Obsolete and offensive." To which he responded, "It's by, about and for Scotch Canadians and that's what we call ourselves." Compromise: British title The Non-potable Scotch.Masalai (talk) 04:37, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

The problem is, the term "Scotch" is considered outdated, even in Canada, and the two sources you provide are Galbraith and Douglas. These are not exactly contemporary sources and you're kind of proving yourself wrong. It's like using Huckleberry Finn as a manual for currently accepted racial terms. We need to see what the government uses in statistical sources, what contemporary newspapers and media use: this would be appropriate per WP:RS not a book published in 1964. freshacconci talk to me 14:42, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Exclusion of the historically general term "Scotch" in Canada

Why must the brief mention of the eminent -- widely regarded as great -- Canadians Tommy Douglas and Ken Galbraith referring to themselves and their backgrounds as "Scotch" rather than "Scottish" be excluded? This is history. The people who so-referred to themselves were excluded in the Highlands Clearances. I recently encountered a picture-framer here in Brisbane, Australia, who had a strong Gaelic accent and I exclaimed to him that that was the first language in my family till the 1970s. But that we have a lightly different term for the ethnicity that was undoubtedly his. He responded, "Oh, I doubt that. Far more of us in Canada than in Scotland. We copy them and call ourselves "Scotch." Should I scan the cover of Ken Galbraith's 1993 book "The Scotch" to be attached to this section? Masalai (talk) 12:13, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

r here in Brisbane, Australia,

"Scottish" vs. "Scotch" is a question of usage, which you have already dealt with at length at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_(adjective) . Since the ostensible subject here is the Scottish diaspora in Canada, I see no reason to repeat the argument about usage, notwithstanding its dubious merits (Douglas and Galbraith may be regarded as "great" in their respective fields, but in neither case are they particularly renowned as arbiters of usage). You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, of course, though you might want to buttress it with stronger citations than J.K. Galbraith and a personal anecdote or two. And "The Scotch" was published in 1963. SerBronn (talk) 01:48, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

It was published in 1964. Other editors seem ignorant or oblivious of the fact that the immigrants from Scotland were after the Highland Clearances: All Gaelic-speakers and referring to themselves not as "Scottish," which is an Anglo-Saxon usage. Is it not appropriate to continue reference to Galbraith and to Tommy Douglas? Masalai (talk) 04:27, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

As I indicated above, "Scots" vs. "scotch" has been more than exhaustively covered elsewhere. Do you have any citations for your preferred usage apart from Galbraith and Douglas? Neither of them is cited in the OED entry for "Scotch" (or for anything else, for that matter). SerBronn (talk) 04:43, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Afghan Canadian which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 22:16, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Is this bare title essential?

Two of the most eminent Canadians, historically, were Tommy Douglas John Kenneth Galbraith and Douglas and Galbraith determinately referred to themselves as Scotch, not Scottish Canadian. Both were descended from the Highland Clearances and their families were not Anglo-Saxon but Celtic, who spoke Gaelic rather than English as their first language. Indeed, Galbraith while in New Delhi 1961-63 as Jack Kennedy's US ambassador wrote the book he was proudest of till his life's end in 2006 at age 97: "The Scotch." His London publisher objected: "You can't use that term: obsolete and offensive." He responded, "It's by, about and for Scotch Canadians and that's what we call ourselves." The compromise was the title of the British edition: "The Non-potable Scotch." Is it far too academic to distinguish between Anglophone Scots and Gaelic-speaking Scotch? I a few days back encoutn4red a painting-framer here in Australia who had an accent that clearly indicated that his first language was Gaelic, as was my families till the 1970s when I came into adulthood. I exclaimed in delight that that was first language in my family till the 1970s but we have a slightly different term for the ethnicity. "Oh no. Far more of us in Canada than in Scotland and we copy them: we call ourselves Scotch." Masalai (talk) 04:39, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Why are you making the same point in several sections. It's confusing. You should keep the discussion in one section.

Masalai has been asked repeatedly for citations supporting his opinion but he insists upon repeating the same anecdotes, here and elsewhere, regarding his picture-framer, Galbraith, and Douglas. Now he's provided us with an image of the cover of a book published over 50 years ago, as if that somehow enhances his credibility. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SerBronn (talk • contribs) 16:31, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

"Scottish Canadian"??

Forgive me for repeating myself. But I have now employed an art expert in a nearby store to mount my tapestry, some 200 years old. His surname and accept indicated to me clearly that first language is Gaelic, as it was in my family till the 1970s. "But a slightly different term for ethnicity among us than you." "Oh no. Far more of us in Canada than in Scotland, and we copy you. We're 'Scotch.'" Beyond the two most famous Canadians who frequently described themselves as "Scotch" -- Tommy Douglas and Ken Galgraith -- why is that an issue at all in this article? Anglo-Saxon lowlanders of Scotland of course call themselves "Scottish," but highlanders as "Scotch." Indeed, a cousin whose mother was dean of law in Edmonton recently visited his maternal ancestral homeland of Iceland figuring he could practise his mother's native language. No luck: Icelanders all said to him -- insisting on English -- "You must be aware we are half Scotch, aren't you?" Can the article's heading not be amended? Masalai (talk) 09:44, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Your bizarre - in fact, incomprehensible - personal anecdotes do not constitute adequate documentation for anything, let alone for a reversion of the article's title to the now-archaic "Scotch." You have now stated this nonsense in at least 4 discussion threads. Please stop. SerBronn (talk) 14:16, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Odd that you would insist on your Angles, Jutes and Saxons perceptions being made universal. I've just had an artist technition with a thick accent indicating as he confirmed to be so that his first language is Gaelic. I remarked that that was the first language of my family till the 1970s but a slightly different term for the ethnicity. "Oh no," he exclaimed. "Far more of us in Canada than in Scotland since the Highland Clearances. We copy them and call ourselves Scotch." Exactly as did a nurse with the same accent when I was having a broken arm treated. Why to make an exception here? Tommy Douglas and Ken Galbraith were hardly ancient or medieval, having died of old age respectively in 1986 and 2006. Indeed, when my younger son, who despises Australia where he's stuck as a result of his mother's citizenship, read the Galbraith book which I gave him in reaction to his having exclaimed over the "correct" term for his ethnicity, his best friend reported to me that he laughed for weeks reading and re-reading the book. Masalai (talk) 06:24, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

What you bizarrely refer to as my "Angles, Jutes and Saxons perceptions" are, in fact, substantiated by the OED, the Canadian Encyclopedia, and every current style guide I could find. Your "perceptions," on the other hand, are substantiated by "an artist technition [sic] with a thick accent" and your quaint obsession with a book published over 50 years ago. You've now repeated this nonsense 6 TIMES in this Talk thread! SerBronn (talk) 20:57, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Ethnonyms for Gaels

(Copied from Talk:Outlander (novel)#Ethnonyms for Gaels)

I've noticed that this article refers to Scottish Gaels as "Highlanders" and in general conflates Gaels with Lowlanders. This is very misleading, as Gaels and Lowlanders thought of each other as separate ethnic groups. In Scottish Gaelic, the Gaels would have referred to themselves as "Gàidheil" and to non-Gaelic-speakers (whether Scottish or English) as "Gall" (which translates to foreigner). The preferred name for Gaelic-speaking Scots in scholarly publications is Gaels, not Highlanders, which can be misleading. Please see Michael Newton. Warriors of the Word: The World of the Scottish Highlanders. Birlinn, 2009. for an explanation or read Newton's blog. Alázhlis (talk) 04:05, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

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Scottish Canadians in Mexico?

I was just reading this article, only to find out there were apparently 962,000 Scottish Canadians in Mexico? Where is the source for that enormous figure? I had never even heard of that many Scottish Canadians residing in Mexico, let alone 962k. 19 September 2021

Incorrect graph

Hello, can someone change the graph relating to the number who descend from Scottish ancestry in demographics, as it incorrectly states 'population (millions)', when actual numbers are shown as million, meaning that the current population is nearing five trillion. Can someone fix this please. Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Essexman03 (talk • contribs) 09:03, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Other countries

Where are these figures coming from? Are there nearly a million people in France of Scottish-Canadian origin? That seems incredibly implausible. 2600:1702:6D0:5160:3033:97D9:236B:A57D (talk) 14:24, 30 June 2023 (UTC)