Talk:Scouting and Guiding in mainland China

2005 discussion that does not have a section

If you are just going to pick semantics and not contribute otherwise to the article, your energies are better spent elsewhere. The topic is Scouting in Mainland China. Geographically, Hong Kong and Macao are connected to the Chinese mainland. Both the ROC and PRC stand by their "one-China" policies, therefore according to them, there is only China. This article pertains to the larger section of China connected to the _mainland_ of Asia, not to your perception of political status. I say again, this article covers the existence of Scouting in the _geographic_ Chinese mainland, outside of the Scouting that exists on Taiwan. This article does not debate political or cultural or 'widely accepted' definitions, just geography. Chris 18:16, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

The term "mainland China" is rarely, if not never, used for its purely geographical meaning. — Instantnood 18:31, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

You seem determined to force POV into this article. I will keep watch and continue to undo your POV, as you are not paying attention. This article does not care about your definition of what is on the Chinese mainland. Both Hong Kong and Macao are connected _physically_ to Asia, they are on the Chinese mainland. This _is_ one of those rare articles in which mainland China is "used for its purely geographical meaning". Your additions belong in a political discussion in the national article, not in this on which is on Scouting (also note with a capital S always in English). Chris 18:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

It seems apparent you are not familiar with what the term "mainland China" refers to in actual real-life usage. It's irrelevant to the point of view of anyone. Please research on what the term actually means before you use it in writing an encyclopædia article. — Instantnood 18:43, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Instantnood, in fairness, if you have somethine _else_ to contribute, perhaps information on possible Scout groups starting in the PRC, anything but this argument, your changes would be most welcome. I am familiar with the common usage. I just want you to understand that for this article, for this purpose, we are trying to keep the definition _strictly_ geographical. I do not want to fight on this. I worded this very particularly from the onset of this article. Again, if you have _new_ information on anything else on this article, please share it. But stop with the POV, please. Chris 18:45, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

It's nothing to do with anybody's point of view. There's never ever any serious writing in which mainland China is defined in this way. Please kindly justify why this different definition of the term stands, why should the term be defined in this way in this article, and suggest how we can avoid confusions with the prevalent meaning of the term. Thanks in advance. — Instantnood 18:50, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

The entire point of Scouting (note again the capital S) is to promote good citizenry and understanding of others in the world. The debate as to what is and is not included in China, for instance Tibet or Mongolia, is fractious enough. The reason we are sticking to the rarer geographic use is to avoid any such political debate on this page. I _know_ it is not common usage, but it is wholly _neutral_ usage. It is supposed to be neutral, in line with Scouting ideals, rather than a divisive "this belongs or belonged to this country, so it's different". Consider Cyprus, which is claimed by both Greek and Turkish groups. Cyprus is still a whole island. For the purpose of this article, who-owned-what-when has nothing to do with the physical _geography_ of China. It needs to be this term, I know it's rare, I know you don't like it, but it is not ignorance or lack of seriousness on my part in writing this way. Please put it back the way it was. I respect that you understand the topic greatly, please understand why this article is being written in this way. Wikipedia has a 'three reversions' policy, I do not want to have this mediated.

Now, if in fact the PRC _is_ developing Scouting (which I do not know), then the article does need to be changed to reflect that at that point. If you have such information, please share it. That would be most welcome, and we would be happy to have your contributions! Chris 19:02, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. I'd say your definition is in fact confusing especially to readers who are familiar with how the term is used in almost all ordinary real-life situations. IMO it's more useful to define the geographical scope of this article according to the usual meaning of the term "mainland China", since development of Scouting in Hong Kong and Macau is pretty irrelevant with that in mainland China. There's little reason to mess up everything in an article. Please be reminded that Wikipedia is a collaborated project, and no user owns any entry on Wikipedia. — Instantnood 19:15, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm glad we are coming closer to understanding. The article should not confuse anyone, but it most definitely uses that rarer geographic term. You said yourself "almost all" and "almost never", by that definition there are some few instances in which the geography-only version is used, for this article this suits that purpose. It's like, I couldn't write "Scouting in the Soviet Union", because the Soviet Union never had Scouting. Tsarist Russia did, and all republics do now, but "Scouting in the Soviet Union" would be incorrect. Likewise Scouting has existed since 1908 in various parts of what is now the PRC, but not _while_ it was the PRC. (unless they are working on it now)

Also, the development of Scouting in Hong Kong and Macau is not at all irrelevant, as it may well be that when the PRC _does_ develop Scouting, Hong Kong and Macau may be the ones planting the seeds.

I wasn't at all claiming ownership, sorry if you felt that way. Just was trying to keep the article within its intended framework. Thanks and good Wikiing! Chris 19:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I've slightly rearranged the article and added a leading paragraph as an introduction. I believe it's now much more easier to understand for most readers. — Instantnood 19:43, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Actual situation

ran wrote on Talk:Scouting#"There is no Scouting in totalitarian countries":

1. I've been looking around on the Internet and found out two things about Scouting in China.
   • There is a "Boy Scouts Club" in Hainan province. Official Site. Information is scarce... they might be government-run, or corporate-run (for profit!), or neither... Needless to say they aren't part of WOSM, but they do seem to take a lot of ideas from Scouting in terms of uniforms, badges, outdoor activities, etc.
   • Voice of America reports that the government has shut down an attempt to start a Scouting organization in Wuhan, central China. The report is a bit dated: [1]. I'm translating loosely here: the organization was shut down because it had failed to register with the government (which it was required to do); the government thought that the organization was political in nature; the organization was also reportedly seeking help from lawyers. No idea what happened since (presumably the government has not changed its stance). The official site is still up: [2], and appears to be regularly maintained (latest news item is dated January 10, 2006), there's a BBS on site as well that's passably active (47 posts yesterday), but there's no organization to go with it, and in fact much of the content of that website is copied from the Scouts of Hong Kong.

I think, we should include this informations in the article, but first we need to verify and translate them. --jergen 10:40, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Done. -- ran (talk) 20:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

There may also be some Scout groups in Tianjin, as this article suggests. --jergen 12:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Citation needed

For me, there is a difference between "banned" and "not permitted". Is there any source that Scouting was officially banned by the authorities in 1949? --jergen 09:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Scouting is not banned

Scounting is not officially banned in China, they were only abolished after 1949 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.17.162.102 (talk) 15:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

It still needs properly cited, I have reverted your changes in the meantime. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 20:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

File:Scout Association of China.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.83.253.149 (talk) 17:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia sources causing false information to be retained. There is Scouting in China. RESA East Asia Wolf Cubs held a Camporee in Guangxi, China (July 2014). Just need to find a reliable source for this fact now. DiverScout (talk) 15:51, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

April 2012 Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Not moved: No consensus after 36 days. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:03, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

---

Scouting and Guiding in Mainland China → Scouting and Guiding in China – Article contains dedicated sections and significant text about Hong Kong and Macau, which are not part of mainland China. Even without the HK/MO text the country article is located at "China". "Mainland China" should not be used in article titles, it's a regional exonym. SchmuckyTheCat (talk) 19:25, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support with some reservations. Articles of general name "Scouting and Guiding in country X", such as Scouting and Guiding in China, are general introductory articles that introduce the reader to all the various Scouting and Guiding organizations that exist in a country. They exist for every country that has Scouting or Guiding. In this case, Scouting and Guiding in China is a disambiguation pages, but it is incomplete as it does not mention Scouting in Hong Kong and Macau. After the move, however, it should be clear that mention needs to continue to be made to Scouting in Hong Kong and Macau and to Scouting in Taiwan. --Bduke (Discussion) 20:56, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose-there are two nations with "China" in their name, the ROC and the PRC. Propose alternate move to Scouting in the People's Republic of China, presently a redirect and in line with the naming of the ROC Scout disambig.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 01:52, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

The article, People's Republic of China, redirects to China. Republic of China redirects to Taiwan. There's no reason to oppose based on two China's unless you've got lingering resentment over the placement of those articles. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Have a good read at WP:AGF. I didn't put words in your mouth, you've no right to do that to me.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 07:51, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I get it now. Having a look at User:SchmuckyTheCat/Mainland China, you're projecting your personal crusade onto me. No thank you. That, and as the ROC national organization is named Scouts of China, you're just creating more confusion to suit your obsession. Changing my vote to strong oppose.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 08:03, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support: After long and fierce discussions, consensus has been established to call the PRC just China and the ROC Taiwan on this Wikipedia, as it reflects WP:Common usage. Please don't query this consenus in every single China-related article. --RJFF (talk) 01:11, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• A query needs to be made at every page move because some of them are misguided, like the one at Talk:Vice President of the Republic of China. There's no harm in a case-by-case approach. People just need to use more tact in forwarding arguments specific to the case at hand instead of rehashing the same stuff.--Jiang (talk) 01:24, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Jiang here, even I might disagree about a specific article. Each article has merits to formal vs common name. There also isn't a deadline. Personally I'm only proposing relatively few because of my own attention span. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

• Support, but on the condition that the lead section be rewritten to be more comprehensive. This article contains plenty of the pre-1949 history, so "Scouting in the People's Republic of China" isn't an entirely appropriate title. Multiple scouting organizations both past and present, including the Scouts of China exist under the topic "Scouting in China" and must be included in the scope of this article. This article was never just about Scouting in Mainland China in the present tense. It just suffers from poor organization.--Jiang (talk) 01:24, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: Are you suggesting a Conceptdab article under 'Scouting and guiding in China'? Jeffrey (talk) 19:26, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. The proposed title is confusing, especially with Scouts of China, with represents the ROC pre- and post-1949. Pre-1949 materials in this article can be relocated to Scouting and Guiding in the Republic of China. This article should not be renamed. (By the way, I have briefly looked at the edit history. Materials about Hong Kong and Macau were added with controversies. They should be deleted in my opinion.) Jeffrey (talk) 14:32, 2 April 2012 (UTC)Jeffrey was blocked for being disruptive, and then found to be socking on IP addresses. His comment should be weighted by whether he is seen to contribute in good faith by the community

• Support based on consistency both with other similar articles and with the present country article at China. This is a descriptive title and given the equivalent articles on Hong Kong and Macau are stubs at best, I don't see why this article scope can't cover scouting in the current territory of the country of China, present and past. – NULL ‹talk›
  ‹edits› 23:33, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose Like the dignitaries John Paul II's funeral, the word China here means the ROC. Scouts of China is still represented internationally under that name. This move request creates confusions. 202.189.109.35 (talk) 09:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)— 202.189.109.35 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Scouts of China was officially changed to Republic of China in 2009, maybe that article needs a rename? And the Girl Guides use Taiwan. SchmuckyTheCat (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 2012-04-23 14:38:58

Cite? And thank you for proving my point that you can't hold your tongue around an "oppose" vote, Schmuck.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 23:27, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support per RJFF. This article and others should follow the articles of their parent country. --BDD (talk) 19:17, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose since it seems to deal only with scouting and guiding in China excluding Taiwan. Pinut (talk) 16:23, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

But it does include Hong Kong and Macau, so the current title doesn't match this oppose rationale. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

• Oppose and move to Scouting and Guiding in the People's Republic of China instead pbp 16:36, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Comment If wholesale approval of the proposal doesn't happen, I'd much prefer this to the status quo. --BDD (talk) 18:25, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
• Both the current title and Purplebackpack89's suggestion are acceptable. I'd prefer the current title to Purplebackpack89's suggestion. I can't accept Schmucky's proposal. Jeffrey (talk) 19:36, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support per RJFF. We're trying to get readers to their desired articles with as much facility as possible, and that follows from the names of the countries, as used on WP. ENeville (talk) 00:00, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. In scouting China is still the ROC. Jeremy (talk) 10:37, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

How do you rectify that with the inclusion of Hong Kong in this article? SchmuckyTheCat (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 2012-04-13 21:38:04

No we can't. Where the mention is irrelevant to cooperation between the Hong Kong and PRC mainland branches, Hong Kong simply doesn't belong to this article. A separate article on "Scouting and Guiding in Greater China" can be created if necessary to encompass all of PRC including Hong Kong and Macau, and all of ROC. Deryck C. 18:14, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

• That's what i think too. Hong Kong and Macau are off-topic. Jeremy (talk) 17:52, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Deryck, 'greater' and 'mainland' are unnecessary distinctions. China is the name of the country, with Hong Kong and Macau being constituent parts of that country. The standard article format here would be 'Scouting and Guiding in <country>' as the main article, dealing with the bulk of China as its main topic, with summary sections and 'main article' links to 'Scouting and Guiding in Hong Kong' and 'Scouting and Guiding in Macau'. The notion that Scouting in different parts of China is historically significantly different from each other is a non-issue, given we have Scouting and Guiding in Germany, for instance, even though Scouting was abolished in Germany in 1935 to redirect children into the Hitler Youth, was restored in West Germany at the end of the war but remained banned in East Germany until 1990. The scenario with Germany is quite similar to the scenario with China, albeit that Germany has had longer to reunite its fractured organisations than China has. But just like Germany, China originally had a unified Scouting organisation; just like Germany, China's Scouting organisation was abolished from a significant portion of the country but continued elsewhere; and just like Germany, China now has an official national Scouting organisation again. It's my view that China's case isn't unique enough to justify giving it unique treatment. – NULL ‹talk›
‹edits› 04:01, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

• Except that Germany has since reunified; China hasn't. There the analogy breaks down. Moving this article simply to "Scouting and Guiding in China" is an invitation to edit war over how much coverage to give to what has now become Scouts of ROC. Deryck C. 10:14, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Hong Kong and Macau are both parts of China. Naming the article correctly is hardly an invitation to edit war, and even if it were, 'someone might edit war' has never been an acceptable reason to avoid making otherwise-appropriate changes. Wikipedia's target audience has always been its readers, not its contributors. – NULL ‹talk›
‹edits› 23:46, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

• Germany did not move like the Republic of China. Neither East nor West Germany was ever known under some other name. Germany doesn't have within its borders any unrelated, separately established and still independent scout organisation with international scout movement membership. Don't mislead other Wikipedians. This is nothing different from disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. 218.250.158.120 (talk) 12:10, 30 April 2012 (UTC)this is the same as the previous IP

Hong Kong is a country who has a much longer history than the Republic of China and People's Republic of China. The Scout Movement was established in Hong Kong before these two countries were born. The Scouting of Macau and Hong Kong is separated from the history of China. Each has its own history. Hong Kong is a full member of WOSM. Republic of China is an full member of WOSM. People's Republic of China is not a member of WOSM. The renaming to China will only create a mess of informtion and utterly confusion which defeat the purpose of this article. — HenryLi (Talk) 16:56, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• Support based on the inclusion of Hong Kong and Macau. It's trickier than quite a few decisions, but the text deals with it and there is a hatnote. CMD (talk) 13:34, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

• They were added long after the creation of this article and had always been unwelcomd. Jeremy (talk) 14:32, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I think you are confused. This article do not include Hong Kong and Macau, just mentioned them. It is just about exchange programmes with various youth organisation in mainland China. The Scout Association of Hong Kong organises many exchange programmes over the world. Mainland China is just one of the places in the world. This article has mentioned US and UK. This does not mean Scouting of UK and US is a part of mainland China. — HenryLi (Talk) 17:11, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• Strong oppose per Kintetsubuffalo. The current title best describes the scope of this article. No personal crusade please. 218.250.159.216 (talk) 11:05, 17 April 2012 (UTC)This IP was blocked as a sock

• Admin comment - I reopened RM based on request on my talk by SchmuckyTheCat (talk) --Mike Cline (talk) 19:27, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose - Mainland China defines clearly the intended scope of this article, which I'm glad to see the recent edits are moving towards. Including Hong Kong and Macau, who have separate scouting branches in the WOSM, in this article is WP:UNDUE and off-topic. Deryck C. 18:11, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
  • The term 'mainland China' is many things, but clearly defined is not one of them. – NULL ‹talk›
    ‹edits› 23:25, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support, move Scouting and Guiding in China to Scouting and Guiding in China (disambiguation) and move this to the base name as the primary topic. In addition to titling consistency with China, the primary topic is also reflected by the page view stats from March
  • in Mainland China: 864[3]
  • in the Republic of China: 129[4]
  • in Hong Kong: 117[5]
  • in China (dab): 30[6]
  • in Macao: 5[7]
• --JHunterJ (talk) 12:49, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

• Keep under the current title or under Scouting and Guiding in China (Mainland). Viewing stats is meaningless. It also reveals Scouting in the United States got most pageviews among countries in the Americas. We don't move it to Scouting in America as a result. 218.250.158.120 (talk) 00:52, 28 April 2012 (UTC)this is the same as the previous IP

• Support, differentiating between mainland/republics is difficult since the history of scouting overlaps, since ROC scouting was well established on the mainland prior to 1949. Both ROC and PRC govts agree that China is one country, so there is no inherent need to have two articles. --Soman (talk) 15:32, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
• Schmucky disruptively deleted IP editors' comments, then applied to semi protect this talk page. Jeremy (talk) 14:32, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Yup. Because this page is being socked, that is an appropriate action. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

• Oppose, HK and Macao are not in Mainland China - this's a general international consensus and the official stance of the Chinese government. The same applies to Taiwan. Douglas the Comeback Kid (talk) 14:57, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Their ain't no country named "mainland China". Across all of Wikipedia we name these articles on the country name not by regional terms. Is there a WP policy or reliable source naming that should contradict this? I've yet to see an argument why this name, which defies WP policy and isn't used in RS, should be retained. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

• Oppose. Mainland China makes sense in the topic of Scouting. Mainland China is the area rule by Chinese Communist Party and there has been no formal Scout Movement since 1949. Scout Movement advocates the spirital education which violates the interest of Chinese Communist regime. Chinese Communist regime do not like the presence of non-government organisation. It is probably illegal in China and the communist party set up a Young Pioneers of China instead to promote communist values. Thus, this is what this article value for, the Scout Movement under communist rule. If the topic moved to China, it will be very confusing as the Scout of China is only active under non-communist area which is situated in Taiwan of ROC. — HenryLi (Talk) 16:07, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Exonym"

The term is not an exonym. The PRC actually prefers and encourages people to use terms like Zuguo Dalu and Zhongguo Neidi to call its metropolitan. Such terms also appear in PRC's own legislations. 218.250.159.216 (talk) 05:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Requested Move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page not moved. There is clearly no consensus from the two oppose votes below, and there has been no activity on this for 7 days.  — Amakuru (talk) 18:01, 25 June 2013 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

---

Scouting and Guiding in Mainland China → Scouting and Guiding in Mainland China after 1949 – usually containing Scouting and Guiding in Mainland China after 1949 125.132.155.139 (talk) 09:14, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

• Disagree, The Scouting and Guiding in X" articles are intended to give a broad introduction to all aspects of Scouting and Guiding in a particular country. There is already a section headed "Scouting in Mainland China before 1949". This needs to be greatly expanded. --Bduke (Discussion) 10:06, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. The article covers more than just scouting after 1949, and hence your proposed title would not cover the full scope of the article. If you want, you can propose a split. I would personally be opposed to that as well, though; the article's length is not unwieldy and the various periods of scouting in China can easily be discussed in separate sections rather than separate articles. Knight of Truth (talk) 19:16, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Cleanup the article

This article should be cleaned up. First of all I suggest the History of international scouting units in mainland china in the main International Units section, and merge recent developments section to the History section.--125.132.155.139 (talk) 03:25, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

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