Talk:Scrabo Tower

Separate Scrabo Hill?

I wonder whether content about Scrabo Hill should not be separated out in a new article called Scrabo Hill? Wikipedia has well articles about Divis and Cave Hill. Johannes Schade (talk) 06:44, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi. Good work on the article to date. I've made a few tweaks. But otherwise is much improved. Kudos. On the question ("separate article about the hill?"), personally I'm not sure what purpose it would serve (would, for example, the hill be notable [or different from any other high-ground locally or elsewhere] if it weren't for the tower sitting on it?). In the interest of keeping an open-mind however, could I ask: What would an article on the hill cover? Guliolopez (talk) 14:31, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Quotations

The following quotations might be useful when revising or reviewing the article.

Architecture - “In its lofty and isolated position, size and mass were the chief objectives to be attained at a comparably small cost …”. The Dublin Builder (1865), page 124.

- "SCRABO: Tower - Memorial tower to the 3rd marquis of Londonderry, erected to designs of W.H. Lynn working for Sir Charles Lanyon after a competition (1858) that generated ill-feeling since supporters of William Barre claimed that the conditions had been transgressed. Certainly Barre and Lynn as the two best Gothic Revivalists in Ulster never collaborated, and in several later competitions Barre got his revenge. The Scrabo memorial is a multi-storied Scottish Baronial tower with four corner turrets, three corbelled, and a spiral stairs; more curious than beautiful." Williams, Jeremy (1995), p. 112. This is all he says about Scrabo Tower.

- "Another famous tower, but much gayer one, mysteriously designed iin the Scottish baronial style, built of pink sandstone capped with black basalt by the tenants of the thord Marquis of Londonderry to their good landlord; but one is told 'Scrabo means sod of the cow'. It is square, with small corner turrets at the top of the tower and conical roofs to all.". Jones, Barbara (1974), page 429.

History - “Two thirds of the cost was raised by 98 individuals (the list was headed by the Emperor Napoleon III of France), most of whom were fellow gentry from Antrim and Down, and personal friends of the Marquess.”, McCavery (1994), p. 141.

- The Londonderry estate in the north of County Down covered about 23000 acres (so stated in the exhibition in the Scrabo Tower).

- "In 1855, however, it was decided that the memorial should be erected on Scrabo, and that the design should be the subject of a competition, with the cost of the whole work not to exceed £2,000". McCavery (1994), p. 140.

- "In the end, however, the 135 feet high monument actually cost £3,010." McCavery (1994), p. 140.

- "... if the tower is a symbol of anything, it is surely a symbol of landlord power." McCavery (1994), p. 141.

- "Having fallen into considerable disrepair, it was taken into public ownership, and £20,000 was spent on its restauration in 1992" Brett (2002), p. 272.

Foundation Stone - Baronet Sir Robert Bateson of Belvoir Park made a speech at the laying of the foundation stone in 1857 (so stated in the exhibition in the Scrabo Tower).

- "Four Generations attend Scrabo Centenary" The 100th anniversary of the of the laying of the foundation stone was celebrated in August 1957. It was reported in the Northern Whig and Belfast Post under that title (reproduction of the newspaper article in the exhibition in the Scrabo Tower).

Site - The site envisaged in town for the Londonderry Monument was Conway Square (so stated in the exhibition in the Scrabo Tower).

Etymology - Scrabo is derived from the Irish word "screabach" (so stated in the exhibition in the Scrabo Tower).

Talavera - "Charles was commended for bravery at the battle of Talavera" (so stated in the exhibition in the Scrabo Tower). Charles describes this battle in Chapter XVI of his book, more precisely from page 328 to page 339. However, he does not mention a personal contribution.

References

The following sources might be useful when revising or reviewing the article.

Brett, CEB; Merrick, Anthony C W (2002). Buildings of North County Down. Belfast: Ulster Architectural Heritage Society. ISBN 978-0900457579. Found at Bangor library. Scrabo Tower is discussed on pp. 270-273.

Dunlop, Durham (1868). A Memoir of the Professional Life of William J. Barre, Esq. Belfast: James Magill. It can be found in the Central Library in Belfast under call number: 720.924. It seems that the competition for the Londonderry Monument is discussed.

Jones, Barbara (1974) “Follies and Grottoes”. ISBN 978-0094593503. Scrabo Tower is discussed on p. 429.

McCavery, Trevor (1994). Newtown - A history of Newtownards. Belfast: The White Row Press. pp. 140–142. ISBN 1-832170-70-X. Found at Bangor library. Scrabo Tower is discussed on pp. 140–143.

McKay, Patrick (2007). A Dictionary of Ulster Place-Names, 2nd edition. Belfast: Cló Ollscoil na Banríona. ISBN 0-85389-896-0. On p. 129 it says that Scrabo is derived from Irish screabach meaning rough stony land.

The Dublin Builder (1865), Londonderry Monument. Scraboh Hill Co Down, pp. 124-125.

Williams, Jeremy (1995). A Companion Guide to Architecture in Ireland 1837-1921. Dublin: Irish Academic Press. ISBN 978-0716525134. Found at the Central Library in Belfast. Scrabo Tower is discussed on p. 112.

Engraving in the Illustrated London News. The caption reads "MEMORIAL TO THE LATE MARQUIS OF LONDONDERRY IN COURSE OF ERECTION ON SCRABO HILL, COUNTY DOWN, IRELAND"

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Johannes Schade (talk • contribs) 15:49, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Deletion of single-sentence paragraph

@Dearnshaw7584: You did well to remove my awkward single-sentence paragraph about the tower not being a beauty that appeared at the end of the Architecture section. My sentence was bad English, formed a single-sentence paragraph (MOS:PARA), and was not sufficiently neutral in tone (WP:NPOV), as you rightly said. What I really wanted to do was to convey the sentiment expressed in the two citations that disappeared with your deletion and are from well-know English experts. I think that these two citations should be discussed somewhere in the article in a neutral tone and good English as you rightly insist. I struggled because I am a 2nd-language English speaker and still a newby in Wikipedia. I suppose you are a native speaker. Could you not come up with what is really needed here? With many thanks! Johannes Schade (talk) 08:17, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

@Johannes Schade: I had nothing against the way the sentence was written, it was perfect English. However, yes , I thought the citation went against Wikipedia's impartiality guidelines. Unfortunately I would not have good skills to write content as you suggested, but perhaps you could add a 'popular culture' section or similar? Happy Xmas Dearnshaw7584 (talk) 09:48, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

@Dearnshaw7584: I have moved the discussion of the two citations mentioned to the end of the Origins section and inserted quotations in the text. I hope you agree that it is an improvement. Johannes Schade (talk) 16:31, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

@Johannes Schade: Cheers! Dearnshaw7584 (talk) 19:29, 21 December 2019 (UTC)