Talk:Seán Mac Stíofáin

Book

Did he write two different books, or one which has alternative titles? I have a copy of Revolutionary in Ireland, published 1975 by Gordon Cremonesi, ISBN 0-86033-031-1. The article lists Memoirs of a Revolutionary, same publisher and date. I assume they're the same book and added the second title on that basis but I may be wrong.86.153.187.1 12:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

...(secretly) baptised a Catholic?....

I've just noticed that both this article and the Roger Casement article claim that both of these men had Protestant parents but were secretly baptised as Catholics. The Mac Stiofáin article says: 'Mac Stíofáin (who was baptized a Roman Catholic, despite the fact that neither of his parents was Catholic)'. The Casement article says that his mother 'had him baptized secretly as a Roman Catholic, but died when he was a baby.' These seem very suspicious claims. Now, why would anybody be "secretly" baptised Catholic especially when, in Mac Stiofáin's case, both parents were Protestant? If they felt so strongly about it, why didn't they become Catholic? Is the real link that both were British, the first British born the second British by profession, who betrayed their state's policies a more likely explanation for this story? The current story lends itself to the idea that "they weren't fully British though because they were really Catholic" rather than to the idea that they were British who disagreed with British actions concerning Ireland, a rational interpretation which is a much more powerful indictment of those actions. 193.1.172.166 20:24, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it seems to sanctify them post-facto, and so what to most of us now. Quite a few republicans did convert in 1900–1920, like Maude Gonne and the Giffard sisters. Let's hope that God was convinced in a very meaningful way by their sincerity... Stevenson was probably the last? A need to fit in, being an obvious suspect as a spy.Red Hurley 13:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not convinced that he was secretly baptised a Catholic as a baby. What is far more likely is that he converted to Catholicism when he was older like many other noted republicans such as those cited in the post by Red Hurley.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

It wasn't later in his life and I'm not aware of any secrecy involving him being baptised a Catholic, the reason was because his father wanted him to attend a prestigious Catholic school (The Times, 19 May 2001). 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 15:01, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be contentious but as far as I know, one doesn't have to be baptised a Catholic in order to attend a Catholic school. I have a friend in London who sends her Protestant daughter to a Catholic school, but the girl is permitted to skip religious instruction.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:06, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes but bear in mind we're talking the 1930s then when things were slightly different. As it was a prestigious school places were limited, so being Catholic definitely helped in the selection process.... 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 15:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

You do have a point there, especially as neither parent was Catholic which also helps.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:14, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

To complicate matters further, as the RC church recognises all Trinitarian baptisms there is some question about whether there is such a thing as being baptised a Catholic. PatGallacher (talk) 12:54, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Move

The recent move by User:Jtdirl from Seán Mac Stíofáin to Seán MacStíofáin was wrong in my opinion. Of course, we don't put a space between the Mac and rest of the surname in English, but this surname happends to be an Irish-language one. The Irish MoS is very clear about this. --Damac 10:42, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

You are correct on this, Damac. El Gringo 23:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the title of the article should be changed back to Seán Mac Stíofáin and can't fathom why it was ever changed to Seán MacStíofáin. – HouseOfScandal 20:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Dubious paragraph

I'm not disputing that an article saying something along these lines may have appeared in the Sunday Times, but the claims are garbled. Who does "dissident republicans" refer to in the context of 1969 – early 70s, this term is usually used to refer to people who split from the Provos in the 1990s. In context this sounds like he was accused of informing on the Official IRA/Stickies. Please clarify. PatGallacher 09:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Former Colleague

Under the subject "Joins IRA," perhaps the quote from a "former colleague" should be more explicitly attributed? "A former colleague" is suspiciously vague; if it is possible to locate the source, i think his/her name should be given. LicenseAppliedFor (talk) 22:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Definitely.86.42.219.131 (talk) 11:43, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Liam Clarke? Eoghan Harris? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.13.40 (talk) 23:20, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Nationality

The article said he was "Irish", he wasn't. Stephenson was born in England, to an ethnically English father, held a British passport and his legal career was in the British Army. You do not get an Irish passport through descent automatically unless you have one parent born there. Having one maternal Ulster-Scot great-grandmother, doesn't make somebody "Irish". The Gaelicisation of his Anglo-Saxon name (his real name belongs in the intro also) could arguably be classed under Plastic Paddy, but there doesn't seem to be a good reason to cover-up the reality that this person was British (ethnically English) and pretend he was actually Irish. A supporter of republicanism in Ireland? Yes. Irish? No way. – Yorkshirian (talk) 01:18, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

You are quite correct. Stephenson was British. English, specifically. From Leytonstone. Someone had to be. Irvine22 (talk) 03:25, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The actual description is Irish Republican not Irish, and its pretty clear that its an accurate description. The article does not cover up his origins – its very clearly laid out in the article.--Snowded ^TALK 07:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Quite amusing that Yorkshirian is always bleating about the manual of style on other articles, yet sees fit to ignore it completely on this article for whatever reason. I'm talking about the opening paragraph section of biographical articles for the record. Specifically the sentences "In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable" (emphasis added) and "Similarly, previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability". You say his real name should be in the lead, well it is. His real name was Seán Mac Stíofáin, as he changed it. As for the claim that he had a British passport, that's a great assumption on your part that has been debunked before. If he had a British passport then prove it. As Snowded notes I attempted to avoid the use of English or Irish in the lead, and just call him an Irish republican which he was. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 14:26, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, he was an Irish republican. From England. Does anyone know if he put on an Irish accent when he spoke?Irvine22 (talk) 14:48, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Apparently he never lost his Cockney accent: – http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/sean-macstiofain-755357.html Irvine22 (talk) 15:03, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

From the very beginning of Irish nationalism, many Irish patriots were in point of fact English or of English background, such as Wolfe Tone and Emmet, and later including Parnell, Maud Gonne, Pearse, and Roger Casement. And let us not forget that many republicans from Northern Ireland such as Gerry Adams Danny Morrison, Ivor Bell, etc. possess "planter" surnames. MacStiofain's ethnic origin is not an anomoly within Irish Republicanism anymore than someone with an unambiguous Irish Catholic background staunchly supporting the British Royal Family.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:58, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, many were Plastic Paddies. And then there was the odd (very odd if the truth be told) American Latino like Valera. Arriba! Irvine22 (talk) 15:09, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I presume the repeated reference to "Plastic Paddies" is intended to be gratuitously insulting. It's certainly not remotely relevant! There's no Wikipedia policy that I'm aware of that says a person's nationality has to be determined by their place of birth, parentage or passport. If anybody adopts Irish nationality that's good enough, as long as it's verifiable. This, for instance, makes it pretty clear what Mac Stíofáin considered his nationality to be: "If we could continue to inflict high British caualties it would be difficult for them [the British] to bear the strain"; "Irish Republican resistance had demonstrated to the British, the unionists, to our own rank and file and to the whole world..." (italics mine). Mac Stíofáin was Chief of Staff of the Irish Republican Army and so he was demonstrably an Irish Republican. Scolaire (talk) 19:28, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

In fact, this BBC page that K linked to says it even more explicitly: his mother said to him when he was seven, "I'm Irish, therefore you're Irish". Verifiability! --Scolaire (talk) 19:47, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

He might have "considered himself" to be Irish. He might have "considered himself" to be Napoleon. Doesn't make him so. But I don't think anyone disputes that he was an Irish Republican, from England, who spoke with a Cockney accent. Irvine22 (talk) 20:14, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Your opinion, against verifiable facts. If he was Irish on his mother's side, then he was Irish. Scolaire (talk) 20:27, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

If you have a wee read at the article you'll see it says his mother had some distant Ulster Protestant ancestry, but was also English. Also, it is a verified fact that Stephenson himself was from England. But look – the intimate bonds of blood and sentiment amongst all the peoples of the British Isles are such that one may have many complementary identities. Being British or English doesn't preclude being also Irish, or vice versa. Although it seems that Gerry Adams and other young Belfast bucks didn't seem too enthused by the Pearly King of the Provos back in the day. (Apparently they could live with him ending Army Council meetings with a chorus of "Knees Up Muvver Brown" rather than "The Soldier's Song". But when he wanted to start sewing pearl buttons on the lads' balaclavas his days were numbered.) Irvine22 (talk) 20:44, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Stephenson isn't "Irish" anything, more a misty eyed romantic fantasist. Its not at all similar to borgeiouse British planters like Tone or the freemason Emmet who were actually born and bred in Ireland. Stephenson was born in England, to English parents and was ethnically English. Its pure sophistry to try and negate his British citizenship, otherwise he wouldn't have been allowed to serve in the RAF and by law all people British born are citizens of said country. Take Karl Marx for instance, for a while he was an international political agitator in England and a plethora of other countries; this doesn't make him an "English socialist".

Stephenson's real Anglo-Saxon name belongs in the intro along with the Plastic Gaelic parody. Look at the article on Jay-Z for example of the WP:MOS of names, his birth name is given first. According to Irish law, you can only apply to become a citizen of the Republic by descent, if you grandparent was born in Ireland (if a parent was, then I know for a fact you get it automatically). Stepehenson's maternal great-grandmother was born in Belfast, which is too far back for application. It seems unlikely that the Irish Government would make an exception and award an English terrorist on holiday an honorary citizenship. Unless proof can be provided. – Yorkshirian (talk) 22:42, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

He is described as an Irish Republican, (pipelinked and defined as "an ideology based on the belief that all of Ireland should be an independent republic") and he clearly was one by his actions and roles. The article does not hide the RAF service etc. and it points to sources about third generation election of the republican cause, neither does the term "Irish Republican necessarily make a statement as to nationality. --Snowded ^TALK 07:10, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

In addition to what Scolaire said about the "I'm Irish, therefore you're Irish....Don't forget it" quote in the BBC article, it also says "Although he was born John Stephenson at Leytonstone, in east London, Sean MacStiofain said he always considered himself to be Irish". The lengthy comments/rant above do little to counter what the manual of style says about the opening paragraph of biographical articles which I posted above, so if people wish to continue this discussion I suggest they attempt to focus their comments on that. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 14:26, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Birth name

User: One Night In Hackney: you keep reverting my edits. Please explain why MacStíofáin's birth name is any less significant than others whose Wikipedia entries contain such information in the opening paragraph – e.g. Gerald Ford, John Wayne. Headhitter (talk) 13:27, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Stage and/or pen-names aren't the same thing. Could you explain why a form of his name he never used when he was notable is so important it needs to be in the lead? 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 09:36, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Gerald Ford didn't have a stage name; neither did Joseph Stalin. The Wikipedia entries for both include, in the lead paragraphs, names they did not use when notable. For the sake of consistency, MacStíofáin's entry should also. Headhitter (talk) 14:16, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

So you're not planning to answer the question? I note the examples you provide differ in rather significant ways also, but we can get round to that once you answer the question. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 10:11, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

User: One Night In Hackney: You haven't answered my question, which was: Please explain why MacStíofáin's birth name is any less significant than others whose Wikipedia entries contain such information in the opening paragraph. And I'm not just talking about stage and/or pen names – Gerald Ford, Joseph Stalin, Mother Teresa, Willy Brandt, Josip Tito, Ho Chi Minh and Leon Trotsky don't fall into that category. Why should Seán Mac Stíofáin be treated any differently? Headhitter (talk) 15:23, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Check year he entered RAF

The article states he was conscripted into the Royal Air Force in 1945 for National Service, in which year he was only turned 17 years old if his birth date is to be believed. Was not the age of conscription 18 years old at the time, in which case he would not have been drafted until 1946? The first six months of his year as a 17 year old did coincide with the last months of World War II and I recall hearing from father and grandmother (both now dead) that had the war persisted beyond August 1945, there was a serious proposal by our government to reduce the conscription age to 17 (which would have affected my father, born 1929, who commenced his National Service in 1950 aged 21, having been deferred to complete apprenticeship).Cloptonson (talk) 15:53, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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