Talk:Second Jassy–Kishinev offensive

Decisive victory

User:Laidita This battle completely and iredeemably condemned Germany. The German Wiki says it was a decisive victory, the Russian Wiki says it was a decisive victory, who are you to say the otherwise?

Romanian-and-proud (talk) 19:37, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm no-one, but from what I got it doesn't matter who I am or who you are, just what the sources say, and I'm not seeing a source saying this on the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laidita (talk • contribs) 20:01, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

When the participants, the very participants and their Wikis say it, what more of a source you need? I know you're just nit-picking now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Romanian-and-proud (talk • contribs) 20:41, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

So something should be true cause you say it's true, interesting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laidita (talk • contribs) 20:50, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

It's not me saying it, it's the Germans and Russians. They were the participants, as I see myself needed to repeat. As such, they know the best. Simple. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Romanian-and-proud (talk • contribs) 20:54, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a reliable source. As such you will need to provide a reference for this assertion if you wish it to be included. Anotherclown (talk) 23:33, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Dumitrescu

No complaint here, actually this is one of the things I actually like in this article! He was commander of a joint German-Romanian army group, which means that the German 6th Army, yes, that 6th Army, the main Axis Army at Stalingrad, was under his (at least nominal) command! And to think that most Western "historians" consider the 6th Army at Stalingrad so important that they feel free to completely ignore the Romanian 3rd Army. Now, it's the Romanian Third Army overshadowing the German 6th Army, as both are part of a formation under a Romanian General! Such delightful irony! >:3 Also, it was about time to see Germans under Romanian command, I kinda had enough of seeing Romanian formations subordinated to the Germans...I mean come on, give me a break, they were not really that superior... --'

Romanian-and-proud (talk) 12:37, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Failure of German intelligence

You see? We told them! We freaking told them! Over and over, yet the ignored us! I really had enough of people calling us traitors, in fact I have only one questions for those people: Would you stick by an ally that never listens no you, not even when you are clearly right, and that always wants to control you? Would you?

Romanian-and-proud (talk) 11:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Requested move 10 January 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Second Jassy–Kishinev Offensive → Jassy–Kishinev Offensive – WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The existence of a “first Jassy-Kishinev Offensive” is a novel theory, the term has been consistently used since 1944 to refer to the events in August 1944. Anonimu (talk) 12:27, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:32, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

• @Anonimu and 70.31.205.108: queried move request Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:32, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment are you saying that the First Jassy–Kishinev Offensive is a hoax? Shouldn't you nominated the article for deletion first then? -- 70.31.205.108 (talk) 15:20, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
    • Not a hoax per se, but a theory that attempts to connect several events proposed by an academic with proper qualifications. Considering the lack of other academics adopting or confirming this view, probably the article should be the book, not about the posited offensive. The title itself however is a wikipedian invention (that seeped into some recent fiction books, as can be seen in a Google Books search).Anonimu (talk) 16:40, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

• You need to propose a descriptive title for the first offensive, otherwise it's just awkward. But Glantz's work has received positive reviews and plenty of citations. At least one work (JSTOR 26571082) uses the "First Iasi-Kishinev Offensive" terminology. It isn't a novel "theory" so much as new research. I see no problem with that article. Srnec (talk) 03:09, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Irrespective of whether the battles discussed by Glantz constituted an offensive operation, the fact is that 99% of academic sources used the term “Jassy-Kishinev Offensive” to refer to the battles in August 1944, thus the term “second Jassy-Kishinev Offensive” is a Wikipedia invention that is propagating through the web by mirroring and sloppy research. Matter of fact, the term “first Jassy-Kishinev offensive” is used in Glantz’s book only in the preface, thus never by Glantz (making our article about Glantz’s theory unfactual). The best solution seems to me to convert the article regarding Glantz’s theory into an article about Glantz’s book, using the name he chose, i.e. Red Storm over the Balkans, and returning this article to the well-established term, per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.Anonimu (talk) 08:20, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

• There were two offensives into Romania in the spring and summer of 1944. Most sources regarding the so called "first offensive" are in Romanian and German archives, which Glantz cites. If Wikipedia is to remain a neutral space objective of historical occurances, it is necessary to have a distinction between both offensives, regardless of how "unimportant" the first offensive may seem. New historical work and research regularly uncovers offensives and operations will use different nomenclature. The reason why "99% of academic sources use the term "Jassy-Kishinev Offensive" to refer to battles in August 1944" is because the battles of the first offensive were unheard of to most at the time of their publishing. The article should not be about Glantz's book since there are more sources which discuss the battles of May - June 1944, confirming it is more than just a theory. Mihai mihai1 (talk) 03:03, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
  • I fully agree, these are two separate military actions, with two very different outcomes, and thus should be treated separately. Turgidson (talk) 04:59, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Please note Mihai Mihai1 is a single purpose account.Anonimu (talk) 07:52, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
  • I am not. This is my first edit. Mihai mihai1 (talk) 15:25, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
• Lean oppose This proposal sacrifices WP:PRECISE without gaining enough in return. When I searched Google scholar for Jassy–Kishinev offensive one of the first results was a non-Glantz source stating "On April 5, 1944, the Third and Fourth Ukrainian Fronts launched the First Jassy-Kishinev Operation in northeastern Romania." [1] (t · c) buidhe 17:23, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the pointer; I added a reference to Richard C. Hall's book at First Jassy–Kishinev Offensive. Turgidson (talk) 19:25, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Do note that the source you mentioned calls it the "First Jassy-Kishinev Operation", the only source in Google Books doing so as far as I could ascertain.Anonimu (talk) 07:48, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.