Talk:Panel van

[US terminology]

I'm pretty sure panel van does not mean this in American English. In American English "panel van" applies (I think) to the most common type of van -- a Dodge Ram for example. Tcassedy 15:39, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I guess the closest cousin of the Australian Panel Van in American English is the Sedan Delivery. The last example from GM and Ford was the Chevy Vega in 1975 and the Ford Pinto Cruising Wagon in 1979-80. I founded a website devoted to them http://www.sedandeliveryonline.com there even pictures of station-wagons customized into sedan delivery. The pick-up truck version of sedan delivery was known as Panel Truck and replaced since by the Ford Econoline, Dodge Ram Van, Chevy Van. -SD, June 25 2005

In my experience, the US term is "Panel Truck" which already has a bit of an article going on it. If it's an Aus term (and these vehicles do not look as if they've ever been seen outside the sub-continent), then it seems OK for the article to have an Aus flavor.Dickpenn 22:51, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm American, and I've always understood a clear distinction between "vans" on the one hand, and "panel trucks" or "panel vans" on the other. And, of course, from the smaller "sedan deliveries." EVhotrodder (talk) 00:57, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

also known simply as "PVs"

I (and others I have checked with disagree that panelvans were "also known simply as 'PVs'" - any source for this assertion? Was it a regional variation?--A Y Arktos 20:43, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

The picture of a Nissan Urvan seems out of place in the context of the article Xt828 11:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

As does a picture of a Ford Transit, which is a van: not a panelvan, even in the British use of the term (who claimed this? no citation?). Maybe a Ford Transit Connect better fits the term, but a standard Ford Transit is clearly too big for a panelvan. This should be removed, or the image swapped for a Transit Connect. Lordstorm (talk) 19:48, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

The Transit Connect is a sedan-delivery. It's front-wheel drive only, and based on a unibody car chassis. So it's not a panel van. The full-sized Transit is sold by Ford in three variants, called "Passenger Van," "Crew Van," and "Cargo Van" with global uniformity, to my observation. I do see Ford dealers referring to the full-sized transit as a "panel van" in [1], [2], and elsewhere, though, so it's not completely unheard-of. EVhotrodder (talk) 01:03, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Panel wagons/Cargo vans

should the Chevy HHR vega and the fullsize windowless american vans be included somewhere here as they do and did come with a windowless panel/cargo veriation which wasn't much different then some of the other wagons and vans mentioned except their names? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.17.201.146 (talk) 17:45, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

VW Kombi is a panel van?

I've never thought of the VW "Transporter" as a panel van, even if that is the technical name for it. In eastern Australia, where I grew up, everyone called it a "Kombi" or "Kombi van". The term "panel van" was reserved for the surfers' Ford "Sandman" and similar vehicles, while the van proper (a cab fronting a chassis with high sides) was considered a truck or "pantec". What do others think? BoundaryRider (talk) 08:36, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

The Australian meaning needs its own article.

The Australian meaning needs its own article. They are a completely different vehicle, based on a different chassis, used for a different purpose. The term in Australia has only one meaning, and that is the Sandman type vehicle popular in the 70s. There was a whole culture built around them, mostly by the surfing fraternity or-hot rodders, and more often than not they were decked out for sleeping. I know there was some use as tradies vans, but even those vehicles were different from what the lead in this article says.--Dmol (talk) 05:37, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

You know, you seem to know what you're talking about. What I know is, the Australian section overwhelms the article as it is. I certainly don't object. --I dream of horses (T) @ 02:10, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Number of rear doors

Do panel deliveries have 2 rear doors, 1? --squadfifteen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.64.135.19 (talk • contribs) 16:46, 25 September 2005

Some have one, others two. For example, my father's 1956 Meteor Sedan Delivery, built by Ford of Canada, had a single large door, hinged at the left side. The door had a full-width glass window, making the center rear-view mirror quite usable when the cargo area was empty, since the view was unobstructed by frames. The body was essentially the same as the station wagon version of the vehicle, except for the lack of side windows aft of the front bench seat, and the area aft of the seat was a flat plywood platform for cargo hauling. I'm not certain, but I think the 2-door Ranch Wagon (station wagon) on which it was based had a split rear door, half of which was hinged at the bottom and folded downward like a pickup truck tailgate; the upper part with the full-width window folded upward and was held up by struts. While this arrangement is fine for a station wagon, it would have been troublesome for a delivery van. —Quicksilver^{T @} 18:52, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Difference from car-based vans

How do these vehicles differ from car-based vans? Meio 12:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

They dont - Sedan delivery is just the North American phrase. 78.32.143.113 (talk) 15:14, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Car-based vans in Europe

They never stopped making car based vans in Europe. For example look up Astravan. Meio (talk) 18:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Car-derived vans

From what I understand we call that body type a car derived van and many are available like the Astra van which has already been mentioned. almost every Euro manufacturering group makes at least one. should this be integrated into the article? also We'd just call it a van in normal speak (And not a car).(Morcus (talk) 23:01, 3 August 2008 (UTC))

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge Sedan delivery and Panel van (Australia) with Panel van. Shinerunner (talk) 12:57, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

---

Looking at the four pages it seems to me that they should be combined into one article. Personally, I don't believe the split that was proposed in the section above, and accomplished later, should have been done. The original article should have been expanded to give a worldwide view. The only part of the proposed merge is the Panel truck article which I'm not sure about. From the information and images it seems that it should be included but it could be included in the Multi-stop truck article as well. Shinerunner (talk) 14:26, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

We should organize things by what they are, not what they're called. There's no reason to have a separate article for Australian sedan deliveries just because they have a different name. I see two broad types of panel vehicles:

- "Sedan delivery" covers all vehicles based on a car chassis, including Australian panel vans

- "Panel van" for SUV or van-based vehicles

These could potentially be covered in a single article. –dlthewave ☎ 21:47, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are both missing the point. What is known as a panel van in Australia is ONLY the ute based version. The are not, and never were, built on an SUV chassis or any other base. Vans, and especially Kombi vans, are not included in the term.--Dmol (talk) 00:38, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Then how do you explain the Holden FB and Holden FJ which are both featured on the Panel van (Australia) page. On the Holden FB page the opening sentence is "The Holden FB is an automobile that was produced by Holden in Australia from 1960 to 1961." and the Holden FJ page states "The FJ was the second model of an "all Australian car" manufactured by Holden and was based upon the established 48-215 series, commonly referred to as the "FX"."? Both refer to an automobile platform and not a UTE platform. Plus I'm looking at the definition at [3] which seems to show the Holden would fall under the sedan delivery or panel van category. Shinerunner (talk) 01:19, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

I decided to check the pages for a couple of the other makes and these are copies of sentences within each article with existing links. The Ford Falcon (XH) - "The XH range was offered in 2-door coupe utility and 2-door panel van models, marketed as follows." and the Chrysler Valiant (CL) "The Chrysler CL commercial vehicle range comprised a 2-door coupe utility and a 2-door panel van." I'm just trying to get this correct as the information in the Panel van (Australia) page is largely unreferenced and the same information and images show up on three out of the four pages in the merge proposal. Shinerunner (talk) 10:08, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

From a body panel design perspective, Australian Panelvans (since 1953 for Holden, 1961 for Ford) were based on the equivalent Ute - basically a ute with an integrated canopy and no division between the cabin and cargo areas) From a chassis perspective, both Ute and Panelvan were based on a passenger car - identical from base of windscreen forward, and usually similar chassis behind - often to the point that the Ute/Van would use the floorpan directly from the Wagon (70s Holden Utes and Wagons are the Aussie utes/vans not use this basic design, that I can think of). In terms of merging, I think the two Panel Van articles should be merged - they are both based on passenger vehicles, but the truck articles shouldn't be merged in, as those vehicles have that distinct design difference (though perhaps those two pages should be merged together). --.../NemoThorx (talk • Contributions) 02:39, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

"We should organize things by what they are, not what they're called."

Is "what they are" determined by their design (panelvan/sedan delivery being passenger car based, whilst panel truck is not), or their function (all three are small delivery vehicles with extremely similar purpose)? I'm in favour of the former, but can see the logic either way --.../NemoThorx (talk • Contributions) 02:45, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

My thought was to organize them by design. –dlthewave ☎ 17:45, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. The way I see it, Panelvans (Australian usage) and Sedan Deliveries are functionally equivalent, with PV's "evolving" (to misuse the term) via the Ute, whilst Sedan Delivery got there via the station wagon - but despite the different path, they basically start at the same design point. By contrast, the Panel Truck (term I'd not heard of before this merge discussion) has a completely different start point, so I see it's similar functionality as being the result of convergent evolution (to keep using that analogy), but ultimately still a different vehicle. That said, the Panel Truck page is pretty small as it is, and that alone could make it worth merging in? (unless it can be reasonably expanded instead) --.../NemoThorx (talk • Contributions) 02:15, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree, as well, to organize them by design. In researching the different types of vehicles online it seems like the terms used to describe them is almost interchangeable at times. Looking at the page views for each on Wikipedia sedan delivery has more views, although it's a term I rarely hear. In terms of a Google search panel truck has the highest number of hits but the results are skewed because panel truck also refers to a type of hand cart. Merging everything into the panel van page, to me, would be the best option if the merge is agreed upon. Shinerunner (talk) 23:14, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Works for me. --.../NemoThorx (talk • Contributions) 01:11, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Followup: where did you get page views from? I see Panel van as having more views:

• https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&start=2015-07&end=2018-01&pages=Panel_van%7CSedan_delivery

...plus it's also got more pages linking to it:

• https://xtools.wmflabs.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Panel_van
• https://xtools.wmflabs.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Sedan_delivery

Otoh, 'sedan delivery' is a larger page with more total edits - this is the only metric it "wins" at. I agree that 'Panel van' should be the page to merge the others into.

--.../NemoThorx (talk • Contributions) 01:25, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

When I was referring to page views I just looked at the page information on each page which I believe only shows a 30 day cycle. The redirects for each page would also have to be checked and changed. For example, when I check the term "delivery van" it redirects to sedan delivery Shinerunner (talk) 09:46, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't put very much weight on the page views. They show which page the reader ended up on, which isn't necessarily the term that they searched for or would use in real life. For example, I ended up on the Sedan Delivery page because it had the content that I was looking for, even though I had never heard the term used before. –dlthewave ☎ 13:18, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Hah, I'd mentally blindspotted the side bar years ago and didn't realise it had a Page Information link there! I look now and it gives the same sort of results as the xmflabs site though: 4700 views for Panel van, 2800 for Sedan Delivery. That said, I agree with dlthewave that it's an imperfect metric, and I slightly prefer the "how many pages link to here" metric, since I think that better indicates what people use in the real world. But all academic here. Both those metrics side with our collective (albiet not many of us) view to merge to Panel Van. How long to wait for other contributors to wade in? --.../NemoThorx (talk • Contributions) 15:18, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

According to the page Wikipedia:Articles for merging the suggestion is made that the discussion should go for seven days which seems to be a reasonable amount of time but I imagine that it could be done sooner. Shinerunner (talk) 23:02, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

This is simple. Panel vans are trucks. Sedan deliveries (& panel deliveries) aren't. The pages should remain separate. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 11:34, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Care to check your sources? Panel vans, according to this very page, are passenger vehicle based, not truck based. Sedan deliveries also passenger based, as you say. I've not heard of "panel delivery" before, but they seem to be another name for this same basic thing. (Unless we are operating on different definition of "truck"???). Anyway, there are four pages in this merge discussion, and "Panel van", Panel van (Australia) and Sedan delivery are all based on passenger vehicles from everything I've seen. Only Panel Truck doesn't fit that design criteria, but is such a small page that I think it either needs expanding, or merging into something - either here (because function despite form), or another page? Perhaps that should be dropped from this merge consideration and be tackled separately though? --.../NemoThorx (talk • Contributions) 12:42, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Not trying to make this any more difficult but I was wondering if you've looked at the Ute (vehicle) and Coupé utility articles to see if Panel truck or the other pages might fit there? Shinerunner (talk) 16:47, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Personally, I think those two articles could do with merging together - from my (Australian) point of view, one is just a more archaic term for the other. But I don't think any of the four articles under discussion here could merge with them. The ute is a distinctly different body style to these, even if it shares many common components and underlying chassis design. --.../NemoThorx (talk • Contributions) 01:01, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Since it looks like a merge is likely I put together a basic merged article on my sandbox page [4] if anyone wants to take a look. Shinerunner (talk) 16:23, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Shinerunner, nice work with the merged article in your sandbox. I agree that "Panel van", "Panel van (Australia)" and "sedan delivery" are essentially the same concept, so it should be a single article. "Panel truck" seems to be a slightly different concept (since they were sold alongside the "sedan delivery"), so it IMHO it should remain a separate article.

It would be good if the article could explain the difference between panel vans, panel trucks, shooting brakes and two-door station wagons. Essentially they are all two-door vehicles with an integrated cargo canopy! 1292simon (talk) 22:24, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

That sandbox draft looks good, though shows hints of original article structures. Most notably the last paragraph in Australia/Decline, which reads like a summary/introduction all over again! I'd intended to draft a merge in my own sandbox, but the last week has been insane. With a review/edit of yours, I think it'd be good to go! --.../NemoThorx (talk • Contributions) 23:18, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm a bit busy this week, trying to catch up for month ending, so if you want to copy and use the draft as a starting point please go ahead. I was concentrating on adding more references to the Australian panel van section in the draft so they're not currently on the Panel van (Australia) page. Shinerunner (talk) 10:14, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

My sandbox version - based on yours with only minor differences really: [5] --.../NemoThorx (talk • Contributions) 02:23, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

I think we could close the discussion anytime and make the merge based on NemoThorx's draft if there's no further discussion. Shinerunner (talk) 17:36, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merge Panel truck

There seems to have been a discussion earlier, but reading Panel truck leaves me very unclear as to the distinction from "panel van." It seems mainly to come down to regional distinctions, with a bit of marketing thrown in. I believe that merging panel truck here would help clarify matters and remove content duplication. Best,  Mr.choppers | ✎  19:25, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

I think there is a case to merge, but I think there is a stronger case to keep them seperate and improve the Panel truck page and the distinction. Especially the "Difference" section on that page which refers to panel vans as "sedan delivery". Why keep seperate? to borrow from zoology - animals are named and classified by how they evolved and are related to, no matter how similar the end result of different evolutionary routes are. By that same logic, I see panelvans and panel trucks as having "evolved" quite differently, so should remain seperate. --.../NemoThorx (talk • Contributions) 07:37, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

I am just wondering if this distinction is indeed correct. To me it seems mostly a case of regional differences. Meanwhile, the attempts at including the VW T2 and the Chevrolet HHR completely undermines the case for a separate entry as one is a plain van (T2) and the other almost perfectly fits the definition of a panel van. There is so far no source stating that panel trucks were built on SUV or crossover chassis.  Mr.choppers | ✎  13:31, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Almost definitely regional variations are going to play into this. And the haphazard updating of different wikipedia articles by different people doesn't help any. To look at the two vehicles you cited - the VW Type 2 was passenger vehicle derived for the first three generations (T1, T2 and T3), but certainly don't share the body style of "panel vans" used here (ie: sedan front, van rear), and the later generations (T4, T5, T6) appear to be designed as commercial vans first and foremost - making it a different vehicle type by my logic! (The Ford Econoline makes another example of this type of complexity - the original 1963 version was Falcon based, whilst latter designs with the same name were a completely unrelated). The HHR has the look of a panelvan to me, but it seems to be a from-scratch design (on the GM Delta Platform) rather than sharing front (B pillar forward) with another vehicle. So from my Australian eyes perspective, I would actually call the HHR a panelvan, but not because I think it fits the definition particularly well (and certainly not "almost perfectly"), but because it fits the definition better than any other vehicle type! :) (I note that when I say "sharing B pillar forward", to Australian eyes I mean that in the most literal way possible, as per this diagram of the XK Falcon model variants: https://www.fitmycar.com/journal/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/XKFalconcommon01.jpg ). The "panel van" has a strong cultural history in Australia in a way that I don't think it did in any other country. In the past this led to the Australian Panelvan specific page which was merged above. I have a concern that merging Panel Trucks to here will dilute that information and could lead to a push to recreate the Panel Van (Australia) page! Anyway, all this is me thinking out loud more than anything. I'm happy with the current split of pages, but still consider myself convincable. I hope some more voices join in :) -- …/NemoThorx (💬 • 📜) 00:52, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

@NemoThorx: I generally agree with all of what you say. After having removed a bunch of contradictory and unreferenced things from panel truck, I believe that the narrow definition of a panelled van version of a truck, usually a large American pickup truck, is correct and merits a standalone entry. Of course, now there is an editor who is trying to expand the definition and is marking everything he can as a panel truck... Best,  Mr.choppers | ✎  01:21, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

While the OP is looking at this by region, I'm looking at this by body style. I almost thought NemoThorx was doing the same, but I was mistaken. A panel truck would be based on the conventional cab trucks, whereas the panel van is the commercial version of the Volkswagen Type 2, and subsequent competitors. As for the Australian Ford Falcon, I realize they call them and similar vehicles "vans" over there, but for us, something like that would be considered the "Sedan Delivery" vehicles.---------User:DanTD (talk) 03:34, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

@DanTD: Yeah, I'm not looking at this by body style by looks, but by... body engineering pedigree, I guess. To Australian ears, "panel van" covers both the VW Type2 type van, AND sedan-delivery type van. Both share the common factor of "a commercial vehicle based on a passenger vehicle". Australians in the van scene also tend to reserve "sedan delivery" for the panelvans that share the roofline with station wagons, to distinguish them from the high-roof versions (something I think is a uniquely Australian development). To attempt to summarise what may have become confusing - to Australian eyes I think the following is true: VW Type 2 is a panelvan but often just called a "van" to distinguish. A station-wagon-roofline van is a panelvan, but often called "sedan delivery" to distinguish. And "panel van" with no need to distinguish defaults to being understood as basically being "a Coupé utility with integrated (panel) canopy". They could be argued as being "sedan delivery but with a high/unique roof", but often the changes in body lines behind the front doors are more different then just "high roof and filled in doors"). The jump from "sedan delivery" to "panel van" was made by Ford when moving from the 1965 Ford Falcon (XP) to the 1966 Ford Falcon (XR) though the ute-derived "unique roof" is originally Holden - the 1953 Holden FJ had a panelvan body style (derived from the Coupé utility but no station wagon body style at all! But summary of summary: they're all "panelvans" to me! -- …/NemoThorx (💬 • 📜) 12:49, 3 November 2020 (UTC)