Talk:Send In the Clowns

Context of Song in Show

I have corrected a number of statements about the plot of the show and the context of the song:

(1) The article previously stated (several times) that Fredrik and Desiree's affair took place about 20 years ago. But the role of Fredrika, whom Fredrik can at least plausibly assume to be his daughter (see below) is written as a child -- a precocious child certainly, but not a 20 year old. The only basis in the plot for taking Fredrika to be that old would be if one assumed that the affair took place before Fredrik's first marriage (which would require Fredrika to be older than his theology student son Henrik). But the character of Fredrika is just not written to be that old -- therefore the assumption that the affair took place before the first marriage must be wrong. Either the affair was adulterous, or Fredrik's first wife must have died much earlier than one might otherwise assume.

(2) The article claimed that Fredrik had positively proposed to Desiree. I do not have access to the book, but saw the London production a few days ago and do not recall any language that would support the idea that there was a formal proposal.

(3) There is an ongoing controversy at the discussion page for A Little Night Music over whether Desiree definitely states that Fredrika is Fredrik's child. Based again on the London performance, she does not -- though at present a statement that she does still appears in the article for A Little Night Music (contradicted by an entry at the discussion page). Nandt1 (talk) 08:27, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting comments, very thoughtful-and thought provoking. I want to add just three things--according to this book, which is the printed script (is that what it is called?) ([[1]] p.25), Fredrika is 13 years old. So, here we have a reliable and verifiable age --your point 1.JeanColumbia (talk)

About your point 2, here is a book that discusses ALNM, and quotes Fredrik's lines at the end of the musical:([p. 142]). "A coherent existence after so many years of muddle. You and me, and of course, Fredrika..." A proposal of marriage? Perhaps not, but certainly a life together, so maybe that is what any writing/commentary about the musical should stress. As to a marriage proposal "20 years earlier" that does not seem to be supported by my reading of these (and other) books, appropriate to remove it, in my opinion.JeanColumbia (talk)

And finally, I do not have the entire script, but here is what Joanne Gordon says about Fredrika: "...and Desiree's daughter, the result of Desiree's and Fredrik's previous daliance." ([p. 123]).JeanColumbia (talk) 12:16, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

A Postscript. I recently re-watched Ingmar Bergman's "Smiles of a Summer Night", the film on which A Little Night Music is based. Care is needed in basing conclusions about the musical on the plot of the movie, as Sondheim and his collaborators made some signficant changes. In the movie, for example, Desiree has a son, Fredrik, rather than a daughter, and the son is clearly several years younger than Fredrika is in the musical (the movie also makes it explicit that the affair between Desiree and Fredrik took place after the death of his first wife, and that he had not proposed marriage to her at that time). The film does maintain the ambiguity over the paternity of Desiree's child which I believe survives in the musical. Towards the very end of the movie, when Fredrik and Desiree come together after the elopement of his wife and son, he challenges her that she must tell him why she named her son Fredrik. With a twinkle in her eye, all she will say is that it's a nice name for a little boy, isn't it? Nandt1 (talk) 11:30, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

(4)"During the 19th century when circuses were important entertainments, there were many acts where people literally risked their lives'- high wire, etc. When someone fell or was injured or even killed, calls of "send in the clowns" were heard- meaning, distract people from the tragedy. So when Desiree sings "Send in the clowns" she is making light of the fact that her dreams/future have died and there is poignance and one should . . . realize how truly devastating the scene that precedes the song is." Lukunor 12:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markborthwick (talk • contribs)

References

Modulations

The claim has been made, without cites, that "the song is a challenge to sing because of its modulations." This needs further research. Oconnell usa (talk) 04:43, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Cites

Many cites are needed in the Articles, especially for Recordings and Parodies. Oconnell usa (talk) 05:03, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Also see how Cites are used in a song, at Dixie (song). Oconnell usa (talk) 15:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Additional Recordings Needed

There are many additional recordings which should be either added or referenced. Ditto for additional parodies. Oconnell usa (talk) 05:03, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Conform to Templates

The article should be made to conform with the applicable template(s):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Music_infobox_templates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_Song
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_Standard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_Musical

Oconnell usa (talk) 05:32, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Oconnell usa (talk) 05:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Oconnell usa (talk) 05:40, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Oconnell usa (talk) 05:41, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Note that citation templates are not required in Wikipedia. Some editors find them helpful. Personally, I feel that they make an article and the references more difficult to edit. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:17, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Rate Article

The article should be rated per the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Musical_Theatre/Article_Assessment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Assessment_FAQ

Oconnell usa (talk) 05:32, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Oconnell usa (talk) 05:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Oconnell usa (talk) 05:55, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Having taken a good look at the article, I think it belongs in C-Class. Although it seems to include a lot of good research, the prose generally needs work, there is a lot of repetition, it is too listy (lists should be converted to narrative paragraphs) and there are some organization issues. I left other comments below. One easy fix: See WP:OVERLINK - names should not be repeatedly bluelinked. Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:32, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Requested Assessment

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Musical_Theatre/Article_Assessment
Oconnell usa (talk) 05:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I have upgraded this to C-class. I will review it more carefully. It looks comprehensive and certainly reveals some careful research, but after a quick review of the beginnning of the article, I can note that when you quote a performer like Dench, they are only giving their interpretation. They cannot speak definitively as to the meaning of the song. The Introduction is FAR too short. See WP:LEAD - it should be an overview of the rest of the article to come. I'd say at least three paragraphs. Also, the distinction between circus clowns and theatrical clowns/fools is overdone. Whenever you are tempted to use bolding or exclamation points in Wikipedia, you are probably not doing something encyclopedic. The MOS says not to use bolding in articles for emphasis. Anyhow, "theatrical" clowns are a metaphor for circus clowns. BTW, you make it very difficult to review the article by having your refs all spread out like that. I suggest removing all the spaces and useless items in the ref templates. I'll look more closely when I have a moment. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:46, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your help. I will begin to make the suggested improvements and welcome additional suggestions. PS -- Before your post, I found your User talk and FA contributions, which I was researching for this Article. A short time ago, I finally (after extensive searching) found an FA article about a song that was not linked to an individual singer: in this case, "Dixie (the song)". I will be using it as a template for improving this article. Thanks again. Oconnell usa (talk) 15:25, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Dixie is certainly a good example. Thanks for working to improve the article! -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:27, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, I think, even with the commentary, that quoting the lyrics for the entire song is a copyvio. (Dixie can do it as the lyrics are Public Domain.) Some of the lyrical commentary deals with how (I assume) Johns performs the song on the recording ("she emphasizes the hard ‘k’ and makes the word almost two vowels (KUH – lowns)"). Things like that are not encyclopedic. MUCH of the markup -- the bold and the italics -- are unnecessary. Also, inserting what amounts to your opinion in someone else's quotes -- "The word "next" is [very] important" -- is to be strictly avoided.

I would suggest rewriting the lyrics section. You can reference the lyrics -- not all of them -- but you don't even need the entire lyrics to express what the character is saying, as it's almost entirely double-speak and euphamisms.

But, otherwise, good job on the article. — MusicMaker5376 15:43, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Sondheim's memory and English horns

Two points Ssilvers or another active contributor may want to address:

In the quote, Sondheim recalled Judy Collins recording the song first and then Frank Sinatra, and the text below the quote says "After Collins recorded the song, it was recorded by Frank Sinatra", but the subsequent list contradicts that by showing that Ol' Blue Eyes Is Back was recorded in 1973 and Judith in 1975.

In my admittedly biased view, the song stands out primarily for the English horn solos and interactions with the singer in Collin's and many later performances (like Streisand's). Jonathan Tunick seems to have introduced the instrument; Sondheim had written the introduction for clarinet, which then just plays in the background. Currently there is no mention at all about instrumentation.

Thanks. Afasmit (talk) 20:02, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Dead external links to AllMusic website – January 2011

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Timeline?

The article says, "After Collins recorded the song, it was recorded by Frank Sinatra," but under "Recordings" it says Sinatra recorded the song in 1973 and Collins in 1975. Which is correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.148.235.6 (talk) 13:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

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1998: Megadeth recorded the song live at the Hammersmith Odeon.

The ONLY info on this on the Internet is this article, so I'm going to delete it. 172.251.75.106 (talk) 21:53, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Nelson Riddle chord change Comment Suggestion

I found this performance/interview with Sondheim on the NPR archives of Piano Jazz: [2] (Skip to about 30:00. I remember the original broadcast, but misremembered a critical detail!)

Anyway, Sondheim notes how Nelson riddle changed a sus4 chord to a major, and how Sinatra's version and many that followed it repeated the wrong chord. Is this worth mentioning in the article? Theodore Kloba (☎) 01:12, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

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NFL Films usage

One of the more notable usages of this song is in an NFL Films video on the career of Joe Namath. Passages of the lyrics are played as film of plays from Namath's career seem to illustrate them. For example, "Me here at last on the ground/ You in mid-air," plays as a shot of Namath on the turf with an onrushing defensive lineman lunges toward him. A particularly bad handoff, resulting in a fumble, is paired with "I thought that you'd want what I'd want/Sorry my dear." Empty grandstands are shown as the phrase "No one is there" plays. (I would say that this much constitutes fair use and more might risk a copyright violation.) The existence of this video deserves mention in the article, I'd say, but with someone more conversant of the proper way to reference it than I am, and with the mention that this is just one of a series of such videos produced by NFL Films in the mid-1970s. 2600:1004:B15A:8527:20EE:FC41:94DE:4F23 (talk) 02:11, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Meaning of Title

The expression "to send in the clowns" clearly refers to a circus phenomenon: If something goes wrong, the clowns are sent in to distract the audience from an accident or any other mishap. This could not happen in theaters. So the title borrows its (metaphorical) reference from the circus world. Another detail should not be overlooked: The song's line "you in mid-air" also evokes the image of a circus act (such as a tightrope artist's) in order to illustrate the distance between two characters. Again, the circus serves as a backdrop for the monologue. 92.79.101.164 (talk) 12:01, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

US bias

"The song has become a jazz standard, with performances by Count Basie, Sarah Vaughan, the Stan Kenton Orchestra and many others. It has been recorded by more than 900 singers."

The song has been recorded by over 900 singers, but 3 (US) Americans are listed. One might conclude that the writer and editors have a US-centric view of the world. 86.191.214.39 (talk) 08:02, 20 November 2023 (UTC)