Wikipedia

Talk:September 11 attacks/GA1

< Talk:September 11 attacks
Latest comment: 16 years ago by VegitaU in topic Kept

GA Reassessment

edit
Latest comment: 16 years ago87 comments17 people in discussion

I am baffled as to how this is a Good Article. It doesn’t follow the MOS in regard to the use the word terrorism so fails No.1b of the GA criteria. Also the use of terrorist is not neutral so this fails No.4 of the GA criteria. At the moment it is not stable as POV tag is being added and removed so fails No.5 of the GA criteria. So it fails 3 sections out of the 6 on the Good Article criteria. BigDuncTalk 20:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

  • Keep listed As explained on the talk page, the use of terrorist is acceptable on this page when so many sources have called the attacks terrorism. Unfortunately, the instability is a problem, although it could be argued that the current instability is the result of disruptive editing by those who do not belive in consensus building or do not know how to recognize consensus. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 22:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Delist BigDunc's argument is rather compelling. We do not state on Adolf Hitler's page that he was a mass murderer, nor do we state on Richard Nixon that he was a crook. Good encyclopedic practice is to give the sources, write the article in NPOV language, and let readers decide for themselves. --John (talk) 22:09, 23 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • By 'it', I mean WP:NPOV. It isn't a matter of opinion or explanation, it's a basic principle of Wikipedia that we don't describe Hitler as a mass-murderer, or bin Laden as a terrorist. We can quote reliable sources calling them those things, but, to retain an encyclopedic tone, we avoid being judgmental, instead quoting or paraphrasing the sources in fair proportion, and crediting our readership with the intelligence to make their own judgment. See also here. That example, from an official policy and a cornerstone of Wikipedia, seems very similar to the matter we are discussing here. I'm in favor of following policy on this one. --John (talk) 05:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Keep listed BigDunc's arguments against 1b and 4 are terrible; it's a clear exception to 1b, and "terrorist" is neutral in the present context. And the instability is because of repeated additions of tags contrary to a clear consensus that the particular phrase in question is NPOV. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Delist Per John and BigDunc, I think the article fails primarily by violating WP:TERRORIST. As I've mentioned in sections above, I do not by any means believe this event was anything other than a terrorist attack. However, it's clearly not necessary to state that. Describing the attackers as "hijackers" is more accurate and avoids any accusations of POV. Given the discussions on Mohamed Atta and Osama bin Laden, which concluded that it was unnecessary to describe these two men as "terrorists", I don't see why we can't do the same here. // Chris (complaints)•(contribs) 23:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Keep listed As we have exhaustively tried to explain, our use of "terrorist" is backed by reliable world-wide sources relating to the attack. Remember that WP:WTA refers to terms that are misused, it does not ban words altogether. -- Veggy (talk) 01:19, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
OR is that a WP created phrase is used in the introduction. See talk page for discussion and proof that respected reliable sources like the BBC, CNN, CBS, CBC do not use such phrases as the title for their summary of the day's events.
Also, lost of GA is nothing serious. It can be a nicely written WP article instead of a GA. Why not create a new category "NWWA"? Presumptive (talk) 02:52, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Can you be more specific/give us a link to this discussion?-Wafulz (talk) 13:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Delist Come on guys, all kidding aside, this just doesn't qualify as a good article. I'll break it down. A good article should meet the following attributes:
    • Is is well written: No, the terrorist thing is clearly written with a POV. I know what you are selling with the whole, Fox News, or whatever sources you find, call them terrorist, but I'm just not buying it. We should be better than that. Sorry to compare this to Fox News, or whatever Team America cable network you prefer, but I just don't buy it.
    • It is factually accurate and verifiable: No, of course it is not. It is so absurd, that the article stands in a protected state, as it has for many, many years. Just to write on the talk page, you get threatened with this. There is no way that the narrow scope of this article is factually accurate, and verifiable. It is beyond absurd to believe it is. It's so absurd, that people who point out inaccuracies, are banned, no questions asked. The administrators know the problems; they just don't want to hear about it.
        • Vandals, or people with different POV, different facts, different evidence, and different sources? I ask, because I don't know. I'm assuming good faith. I'm assuming that the people who try to edit the article are doing it in good faith. Are they posting pictures of Goatse, or are these vandals just posting CT? Because if it's being protected against CT, as I imagine it is, then I don't believe they are vandals. And even if it is true vandalism, it's still not good for this article to remain under lock and key. Its been over two years. If the problems have not been worked out, they are not going to be. It's well beyond time to let the article settle into its natural state. GWB article is different, because it's a bio of a living person. Also, the quality of one article does not transfer to another article. —Slipgrid (talk) 13:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
    • It is broad in its coverage: No, of course it isn't. There are many topics that surround the attacks that are not cover, mentioned, or acknowledged in anyway. The coverage of this article is not broad in scope.
        • If broadness were measured in kilobytes, then this article may broad. Also, please assume good faith. I'm not trying to insert pet theories, or anything else to this article. I was simply asked to give my opinion on the quality of this article, and that's what I'm doing. —Slipgrid (talk) 13:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
          • I wasn't referring to you specifically. Articles like this seriously degrade if we don't include everything except for the most widely-accepted verifiable information - the prose falls apart, the presentation ends up turning into an argument, and the prose more or less doubles and becomes unreadable.-Wafulz (talk) 14:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
    • It is neutral: No, of course it isn't. Every aspect of this article, from the images, to the wording, to the references, are chosen with surgical precisions, to hold up some sense that this myth is reasonable. I'll give a quick example. The second source, is used to make the point that "Bin Laden claims responsibility for 9/11." Then look at the source. It says he claimed responsibility in a 2004 video. You got to explain that, because that would throw lots of visitors for a loop. But, the article doesn't mention when he claimed responsibility. And, that might be important to helping people understand the attacks. It's not neutral, because that cite works to confirm what people think they believe, but if one looks at the source, it doesn't confirm what people believe. I don't believe that's neutral; I believe that misleads visitors. It makes me want to scream out, what year did he claim responsibility and why doesn't this article answer that question?
    • It is stable: Of course it's stable. It's been protected for at least two years. I imagine much longer. Anyone that proposes other information or a different point of view, is banned without questions being asked. So, yeah, it's stable, but that's not good.
    • It is illustrated, if possible, by images: It has images. I see an image of the Statute of Liberty. Really tugs at the heart. Who is that in the statue anyway? It's odd that American's don't wonder where their artwork comes from. I see an image of the Pentagon, which is another great work of art, after the wall collapses. The story is told with images. The problem is, if they showed an image of the Pentagon before the wall collapses, that would tell a completely different story. And, perhaps, it would really confuse visitors. The images have the same POV problem that the rest of the article does.
    • I'm not digging on the admins who worked on this article. They have to be some of the most dedicated people ever. This article is a lot of things, but I wouldn't call it good. —Slipgrid (talk) 03:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Delist I realise that with all of the political views and conspiracy theories, this is a difficult article to keep under control, however due to basic POV issues and the high levels of protection it cannot be considered to be a good article. Deal with the POV in a manner other editors claiming consensus - without actually showing that it is NPOV, remove the high levels of protection and let the article find its own natural state and it might be considered to be a GA. At the moment this article is merely showing how wikipedia should not work. Sennen goroshi (talk) 04:34, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
    • response to the above statement by Rx StrangeLove - you seem to be concentrating on the editors involved rather than the actual article. Please remain civil at all times, and do not refer to other users as "bullies" - just because an editor makes an edit that you don't agree with, does not make them a bully and does not entitle you to breach wikipedia civility guidelines. Why not strikeout your comments, and comment on the actual article? Sennen goroshi (talk) 05:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
      • I have, over and over and over. But it doesn't seem to take. An editor that engages in debate, listens and takes reasonable positions isn't a bully. Editors that repeat the same arguments over and over without hearing a single thing anyone says in response are indeed trying to bully their way. I'm sorry...RxS (talk) 05:25, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
        • I don't know who you are talking about, I personally have read every comment directed towards me, and given them all due consideration, unlike others, I have never dismissed comments and refused to discuss topics with others because of their POV, political feelings or tone. I do however appreciate the fact that you are sorry, apology accepted. Sennen goroshi (talk) 14:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Keep listed. I passed this as a GA fairly recentlyand I am afraid that most of the delist arguments given above are nonsense. The person who created this reassessment has claimed that it fails three of the GA criteria because of the use of the word terrorist but in fact there is only one problem here: is the use of the word terrorist to describe the hijackers (and surely there is no dispute about that word?) on 9/11 appropriate. To defend the term, we have 1) for starters wikipedia's own article on Al-Quaeda, which says that it "is an international terroristic Sunni Islamic movement founded in 1998." on the second line. I think its fair that if someone wants to remove the implication that Al-Quaeda are terrorists they should probably start there. 2) Next and most importantly, the article provides extensive reliable sources (As checked during the recent FAC). The article's regular editors can confirm this for me, but I believe that while the vast majority of those articles use the word terrorist in relation to this event, very few make any use of "freedom fighter" or alternate terms (other than the strictly factual term "hijacker"). Claiming that the word terrorist should be removed in the face of this body of evidence is a clear misunderstanding of WP:TERRORIST. Terrorist should not be used perjoratively in any article, but it should be used factually (i.e. as according to the sources) where necessary, as it is here. I have not read the talk page completely but I would be surprised if the people complaining about the term have found sources that outweigh this body of evidence. 3) Finally, I see, somewhat with a sigh of frustration, that this problem began as a result of the endless dispute of the term as it relates to the Provisional Irish Republican Army. I even recognise some of the participants in this debate from those endless arguments that I abandoned over a year ago to spare my sanity. I have seen this all before and unless something is done soon to establish conclusively that is is or is not an appropriate term in this article this could drag on for years. I may say more on these issues later, but I see no reason to delist for any of the reasons given above.--Jackyd101 (talk) 06:42, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Delist: While overal the article is reasonable the problem is with the wording. There are too many hypothesis presented as absolute fact. For example the section on Osama bin Laden gives no indication that there are doubts as to the authenticity of his confessions and doesn't even link back to the Wikipedia article where the reader can find this out for himself. Admissions by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed under interrogation (experts are of the consensus that evidence given under torture is unreliable) are worded to imply they are irrefutable when in fact at the same time he also admitted to much that was false. While the claims and other like them are likely true they are not as absolute as the article makes out. Maybe it's unintended but it has the effect of the article pushing a particular POV on the reader. Wayne (talk) 08:28, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • In terms of presenting facts without analysis, the Bin Laden sections seems as plain as possible to me: He denied involvement, and then he claimed involvement.-Wafulz (talk) 13:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
    • This article is full of reliable information:) Of course you can find all this information by doing a simple Google search, but less say it's a bit more tricky. There was widespread doubt over the UBL confession. That's the same source that is used for the video in the article. If you get a chance, I suggest you go back and watch some CNN video from December 14 and 15, 2001. Huge protest were videotaped and shown to America audiences. As to KSM, the CIA destroyed the tapes of his "confession." They were destroyed under the pretext of torture. You can find numerous sources that say this. My personal, unsourced opinion is that he was not tortured, and the confession tape was destroyed for other reasons, which you can find other reliable journalist editorialize on, but the story reported over and over is that his confession tape was destroyed because it shows he was water boarded. I found the first source for you. You can find the second one. —Slipgrid (talk) 18:24, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Pardon me? What are you talking about? You asked for a reliable source to the information above, as if you didn't believe it existed. I assumed you asked in good faith, and was that you were interested in seeing the information. Was I mistaken? I really don't know what you are talking about. —Slipgrid (talk) 18:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Sorry for confusing you. Wayne made some claims about particular aspects of the article. I challenged to see if there were reliable sources for these. You provided them and I said you are free to use them. Since I don't have an issue with the wording, I wouldn't do any good addressing Wayne's complaints with them. If Wayne has these sources, he can use them at his leisure. -- Veggy (talk) 18:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Comment I am a bit worried about some of the contributions to this thread. I am finding it hard to see were editors are assuming good faith. Accustations of bullies when editors voice valid concerns and issuing of warnings to editors who even contribute to the talk page. Could we just deal with the issue at hand thanks. BigDuncTalk 12:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
    • We differ on what "a valid concern" might be. A concern about the article which has been discussed 20 times and rejected the last 15 doesn't strike me as "a valid concern". The name question is, has, at least, not be discussed that extensively. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Arthur you keep harping back to the consensus that was reached but consensus requires special attention to neutrality this article obviously isnt neutral. Also being an admin I'm sure you are aware that consensus can change. Also there seems to be a certain amount of ownership attached to this article by a few editors. Removing non neutral terminology doesn't in any way change what the perportrators of this act did and I don't think any editor pushing for the removal of said items are doing so with an agenda apart from making this article more neutral. BigDuncTalk 14:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
The consensus is that "terrorist", on this article is WP:NPOV, not that it should be kept in spite of WP:NPOV. (That's more difficult to demonstrate than a simple verification that there's consensus to keep "terrorist", but it seems accurate.) It has been argued that removing "terrorist" is WP:POV. I don't recall who said that, and I'm not sure I would take that position now, but the arguments are certainly credible. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
That's, in my opinion, nonsensical. It's like saying there is a local consensus to disregard WP:BLP on a specific article. "Terrorist" can never be NPOV, by definition, hence the existence of WP:TERRORIST. It's one of these words, like "alleged", that should pretty much always be avoided. --John (talk) 14:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
That is clearly nonsense. WP:TERRORIST says "words generally to avoid". If you want to go through the archives to find evidence that the CONSENSUS to include "terrorist" was NOT based on the argument that this article is a clear exception to WP:TERRORIST while maintaining WP:NPOV, go ahead. However, it's quite clear that for "terrorist", as for the other examples in WP:AVOID, there can be exceptions to the guideline. If you want to argue that this, specific, article, is not such an exception, and you can provide new arguments, go ahead. If you want to argue that there can be no such exceptions, IMHO, there is nothing more to talk about. Consensus and policy are against you. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Oh, are you talking about when Senne called us meat-puppets? Yeah, that seems like a good faith argument to me. -- Veggy (talk) 16:11, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Keep listed. It looks like the main concern here is over the word "terrorist". From all the discussions, it looks like there is strong consensus among major sources that yes, this was an act of terrorism.-Wafulz (talk) 15:04, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • This discussion though concerns the Wikipedia article on September 11, 2001 attacks, not the event itself, which no-one disputes was terrorism. Likewise, a majority of sources regard Hitler as a mass-murderer and Nixon as a crook. Nevertheless, our respective articles do not state in the lead "Hitler was a mass-murderer" or "Nixon was a crook". This is because of a fundamental policy and key principle called WP:NPOV, which you may want to review in detail. --John (talk) 15:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
(edit onflict) No one is saying that it wasn't an act of terrorism. It says right in the lead it was a terrorist attack, therefore the perpetrators are terrorists, but there's no need to hammer it home every third sentence when hijacker can be used. It is the use of words that breach the MOS and thus fails as a Good Article. BigDuncTalk 15:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
(ec x3 )Actually, I agree with the objectors that that is not adequate for inclusion of "terrorism" in the article. What we need is to demonstrate that "terrorist" is WP:NEUTRAL on this article. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
As John said above local consensus cannot override global consensus, It's not neutral on any article. BigDuncTalk 15:26, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
It doesn't say "never under any circumstance use the word 'terrorist'".-Wafulz (talk) 15:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
I think things are getting a little overcomplicated at the moment. Let's make it simple, ignore the comments along the lines of "we cannot change it because I don't consider there to have been any new points made" also ignore "the last time we had an edit-war over this subject, when the dust settled the term terrorist was in use, so I claim consensus" - I consider those points to be borderline wikipedia-gaming and not within the spirit of wikipedia guidelines (you may disagree, it is your right) - you can ignore the two above arguments because of much more importance are the following two arguments - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Foundation_issues and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:5P - the make the stand on NPOV more than clear - and these take priority of any petty arguments about which term had consensus or if there are any new points. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Let_the_facts_speak_for_themselves and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Guidelines_for_controversial_articles also make good reading. People need to leave their personal beliefs at the door, when editing wikipedia - I got my ass handed to me on IRA related articles, due to me wanting to use the term terrorist, and despite growing up in the UK in the 80s, having a family member shot by what I would describe as an IRA related terrorist, I had to concede that to be truly neutral, the term could not stay. The term terrorist is the negative form of freedom fighter, as a negative term it cannot being anything other than POV, and what makes it worse is that there are terms which are perfectly suitable for this article, that are not used (or quickly reverted out by the editors who think they OWN this article). Sennen goroshi (talk) 16:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
(sigh) You know, the best results come from everyone putting in suggestions instead of just arguing. Fine, what would you like to see here? How could we perfect the wording in your opinion? -- Veggy (talk) 17:24, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Simple - remove references to terrorists, and replace them with the word hijacker (unless someone else has a better word to suggest) apart from actual quotes. That would remove a lot of the POV issues, and edit warring. Sennen goroshi (talk) 17:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
That'll work for the nineteen men, but al-Qaeda isn't a hijacking organization and bin Laden isn't a hijacker. If you say it's militant Islam, be aware that links to Islamic terrorism. You'll be polishing the words superficially when (according to Wikipedia), the underlying issue is terrorism. -- Veggy (talk) 17:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Keep listed Perhaps if the arguments that are being presented were new, I would feel differently. However, they are not. EVERYTHING being said here has been argued to death in the talk page archives. Yet a subset of editors refuse to take the time to browse these, or refuse to acknowledge that the debate against this article has stagnated. Regardless of the reason, with an article like this, there will always be editors who attempt to hijack it for their own personal agenda. The GA criteria recognizes that such editors should have no sway on if something should be a GA or FA. I once again request that those against this article being a GA/FA re-read the archives and prove that their arguments have never been brought before this talk page before. If they cannot, I suggest that they accept that consensus is against them. We have used Terrorist for years. We have left out CT for years. Why is your argument somehow better than all of those that have come before you? --Tarage (talk) 18:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Again I will say this but can editors please assume good faith. Tarage please see Past decisions are open to challenge and are not binding, and changes are sometimes reasonable. BigDuncTalk 19:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
No, you miss the point. I can assume good faith all I want, but it doesn't change the fact that these arguments are well past stale. Not one thing the people arguing against the status quo is new. If you are suggesting that we change our successful GA simply because an editor wants to bring up the same old argument again, I will have to disagree with you 110%. Just because Wikipedia is not static does not mean we should bend to every whim we see. --Tarage (talk) 06:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
    • No personal agenda here. I am neither pro/anti-Muslim nor pro/anti-American, my only agenda is NPOV - and to be rather blunt - I couldn't care less what was discussed before, judging by the style of discussion that is going on right now, I doubt consensus was achieved by someone proving a valid point, it was just an exercise to see who was the most stubborn, when I have true consensus pointed out to me, rather that 2 groups of editors both reverting and making their point again and again (me included) then I might accept that there was consensus. If someone is trying to improve the article and remove POV, I don't see why I should care if it is a new point or not, what is important is the content of the article, not people being forced to "prove that their arguments have never been brought before this talk page before" - I really really don't care about the process, this talk page is wasting my time, what I care about this article sucking or not. Sennen goroshi (talk) 19:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Sennen has actually made some suggestions for improvement. How about you chime in, Dunc? And Sennen, address the point I made about Islamic terrorism. See, this is how things get out of hand. -- Veggy (talk) 19:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
The suggestion Sennen goroshi made above is the one I made on the talk page about removing terrorist and replacing it with hijacker as I tried to do here can editors tell me which is more neutral? And forget about the citation tags, so as not to deflect my question. BigDuncTalk 19:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Yeah, you tried to impose a change that hadn't been discussed. And you're surprised at the result? Anyway, if you read what I wrote above, you'll see I have no problem calling the nineteen hijackers "hijackers". Where you run into a problem is what to call the incident as a whole, al-Qaeda, and Osama bin Laden taking into account the fact that those articles link to Islamic terrorism. Now, I'm off for the day, so I hope the rest of the editors here can actually resolve this issue purposefully.
Personally, I recommend:
  • Calling the nineteen men "hijackers"
  • Keeping "suicide attacks" and noting that "the worldwide community has condemned the attacks as terrorism"
  • Mentioning that bin-Laden is head of al-Qaeda, a worldwide Islamic terrorist organization. (Or address the issue with that article).
  • Add any information regarding bin Laden's taped confession and criticism surrounding with reliable sources.
-- Veggy (talk) 19:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
They are terrorists. We have many MANY RS calling them that. Many MANY of them aren't even from the United States. Calling a Banana a 'Yellow Fruit' because it is more politically correct will never fly in my book. Don't censor Wikipedia! --Tarage (talk) 06:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • The date of the argument does not work to invalidate the argument, but to show that there is a lasting problem. The archives are full of many other non sequiturs. —Slipgrid (talk) 20:26, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Keep listed Someone doesn't like a word choice, so they want the article delisted? This is not a serious arguement. The issues discussed here are exactly the same issues that have been discussed to death on the article's talk page. To treat article reassessment as an appeals court that you go to if you don't get your way on the talk page is an abuse of the process. Kauffner (talk) 12:08, 25 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Keep listed WP:TERRORIST is only a style guideline, and the use of the word "terrorist" in this article suggests that the guideline may be in greater need of revision than this article. That a word has negative connotations, or is used prejoratively, is not a reason not to use it in proper context. For example, the article on mass murder lists the 9/11 attacks as an example of mass murder by terrorists. While the terrorism article does not list examples, the 9/11 attacks clearly fit the defining characteristcs listed there. We should call a duck a duck, if it is in fact a duck. While I agree that the frequency of use could be reduced, and alternative words like hijacker could also be used in places, there is no need to expunge the word "terrorist" from an article about a textbook case of terrorism. This and the other issues can easily be addressed through normal editinig, and do not rise to the level of delisting a good (but not perfect) article. Dhaluza (talk) 20:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Funny how people keep saying "WP:TERRORIST", but no one has been able to explain why WP:TERRORIST applies in this case or has been able to respond to the inquiries above. -- Veggy (talk) 20:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Scrollbar not working for you, I see. Otherwise you'd notice that where the discussion reaches its points of farthest indentation is where no one has bothered to respond. Incidentally happens to be where the pro-"terrorist" argument has made a point. -- Veggy (talk) 21:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
Instead of trying to be a smart arse could you tell me what has gone unresponded? BigDuncTalk 07:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
He did. Every far indentation, like this post, is an unresolved argument. Look for the furthest indentation before going back to the left to find the problems. It isn't asking too much to read. --Tarage (talk) 07:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • How does it voilate WP:TERRORIST? That style guideline only says that use of the terms should be avoided, where their use would be subjective and prejorative. Surely you are not suggesting that this article does not document a textbook case of terrorism? Dhaluza (talk) 16:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)Reply

Summary of arguments

edit
Latest comment: 16 years ago47 comments8 people in discussion

Let's try for an executive summary of the actual arguments:

Terrorist
Against inclusion: WP:TERRORIST (as an MoS guideline), WP:NPOV
For inclusion: WP:CONSENSUS that it's a specific exception to WP:TERRORIST, and that it does meet WP:NPOV (some have argued that it's required by WP:NPOV).
Edit warring
Against GA status: Well, there is edit warring on the article.
For GA status: It's being done against a valid WP:CONSENSUS (i.e., not in violation of any policies), tagging being done without presenting new arguments.
Unfortunate ungrammatical phrasing of the lead
Against GA status: Claim of WP:OR? Not well written.
For GA status: Claim of WP:OR disputed.

Have I missed anything? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

  • Comment No, I don't think you have missed anything, that was a good and a fair summary. If I can rephrase and add my own summary, it may well be that a consensus of those editing the article recently approve the wording used at present, but I don't think that this wording is consistent with the Good Article guidelines. This article can remain as it is at present, or it can aspire to GA status, but I don't think it can really do both at once. It would also be great if everyone could stick to debating the merits or otherwise of the article without impugning the motives of those with whom we disagree; arguments like this actually distract us from the job of improving the article. So let's assume, if we may, that everyone here has good intentions and try to move forwards, please. --John (talk) 17:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Wholeheartedly agree with your comments John editors are starting to go off on a tangent. BigDuncTalk 18:48, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Comment The stability of the article should be mentioned. If it wasn't for being protected for more than two years, and editors being summarily banned, this article would look nothing like it looks now. Lift the protection, and stop the bans, and the article would change rapidly. This article is not stable. —Slipgrid (talk) 20:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Comment: The article has been exceptionally stable since the arbitration decision got rid of the conspiracy theory editors. It's only recently we've had these issues come up again. The CTers were the major cause of stability problems. Outright vandalism doesn't count and that's why this article is semi-protected. Banning for violations of arbitration decisions is not a bad quality. In fact, it means the editors have taken steps to prevent recurring arguments through the use of admins. I figured you knew that—guess I was wrong. -- Veggy (talk) 20:40, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Comment I fear that you may have misunderstood the intention of the ArbCom decision; there is quite properly nothing there about "CTers", and it would probably be better to avoid using pejorative terms like this about fellow editors in the interests of achieving consensus on how to improve the article. The ArbCom decision merely restates that we must all adhere to Wikipedia's policies in this area, and provides for streamlined enforcement of failures to do so. Indeed the last user to be sanctioned under this provision was no more a "CTer" than I am. Calling those you disagree with names may also lead others to think that your actual arguments on the content of the article lack substance and I would politely request that you avoid repeating this so that we can continue to move forward in a collegial manner. Many thanks, --John (talk) 23:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • It not CT that causes the stability problems, but the in inability to properly address the CT. People who believe the CT don't want to harm the article, they want to correct it. Agreements are not reached because of what I perceive as disdain, dismissal, and snark. For the article to be good and stable, you have to fairly and fully address the September 11, 2001 attacks in a convincing way. Frankly, many people are not convinced by the current article. Until that is done, the article is going to remain protected, and that's anything but good. —Slipgrid (talk) 00:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • It's clear you haven't had much time on this article to address that issue. Believe me and the rest of the veteran editors here, conspiracy theorists–oh, I'm sorry don't wanna poison that well–er, "alternative believers" constantly post unsourced information, slap neutrality, and disputed tags on the article without a clear reason and disrupt the factual, cited work on here with links to YouTube videos, blogs, and conspi–er, "alternative believer" webpages. We've spent years working to research and catalog this information from credible sources. We can't give undue weight to fringe theories–er, "alternative viewpoints" that fly in the face of fact-based research. If you have some specific issue, Slipgrid, that you feel merits more research, by all means let us know and we'll be happy to look them up. If you have tidbits of information from credible, factual, mainstream sources, by all means feel free to post them. Or if you think it may raise an issue, please bring it up on the talk page. Thanks. -- Veggy (talk) 00:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • What's wrong with YouTube videos? YouTube is not a source, but a medium. To prohibit links to works you believe are copyrighted on YouTube, you must know that the work is copyrighted and that Fair Use is not valid. You can't remove links just suspecting that it is not Fair Use. What's wrong with blogs? Some blogs present real news and real facts. Most is just personal dribble, but many reputable media organizations have high quality blogs. Again, you are attacking the medium, and not the source. It seems that is a major problem with this article. —Slipgrid (talk) 13:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
What you are explaining is exactly what is wrong with the article. It is not always problematic edits by CT proponents. Although to a far lesser extent, it is also problematic edits/deletions by editors who reject CT's. I spent weeks to get some of my 911 edits accepted because they conflicted with the official theory despite them being actual quotes taken from the NIST report. Some quotes/copy paste edits were even at times reworded by editors to match the official theory more closely. One established editor added irrelevant material that did not apply to the towers to contradict factual material in the article with the comment "reduce propaganda" and this was only able to be corrected by rewording it to incorporate it in a way to allow the reader to determine it was irrelevant. In another case I replaced the word "rejected" with the word "concluded" which was actually used by the source (which was NIST). This resulted in a small edit war, on the basis that it didn't matter what NIST said because they meant rejected, which ended in the quote being replaced with a summary form which allowed the word rejected to be used. This type of surreptitious editing is common by both conspiracy supports and debunkers but unfortunately while the supporters are agressively reverted the debunkers get support for their problematic edits.Wayne (talk) 08:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • You have to understand, people who believe this, feel a patriot duty to correct the wrong they believe was caused, and they want others to know what they believe the truth is. Some are incredibly intelligent, and some are not. Most have no experience in dealing with the bureaucracy that is Wikipedia. We should assume good faith. In fact, it's their faith in doing good that makes them so passionate. And, when you mix that passion, with a lack of understanding of how Wikipedia works, you get the problems you used to see. Dismissing them, or using snark, or name calling, just makes them more passionate, and less willing to work through the Wikipedia system. So, now the article is at the point of just banning people, without questions, good faith, or any other ration. But, the true problem was always the inability of administrators to work with new users who passionately believe something that is outside of the mainstream. Telling someone to go read forty pages of archive, which are full of snarky comments telling them to go read thirty pages or archive, and generally not taking their concerns seriously, is why the article is locked, and why people are summarily banned. As to me suggesting changes, I personally don't have any interest in making major changes to this article. I just came back to do some work on Wikipedia, and I was reading the talk page, and decided to take a stand on the terrorist language. I believe that they were terrorist attacks, but I don't think that language is appropriate for the article. Since I made comments there, I was asked to give my view on this, which I did as honestly as I can. But, I guarantee, working on this article is of no interest to me. There is no passion from me, and no POV I want to relate to anyone. I am looking for other articles and topics to work on, but not here, beyond finishing what I already started. —Slipgrid (talk) 00:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Okay, I can totally understand what you're saying when we say "look in the archives". I wish there was a better way to address well-intentioned editors who come in not knowing what's going on. But then, understand where we're coming from. Edits like this, this, and this are not well-meaning or in good faith—they are disruptive. And many times, when we delete them, the talk pages fill up with "Why did you delete _____? This is proven information! Wikipedia is about everything and this needs to be on here!" It's a constant game of Whac-A-Mole. Unsourced, disruptive acts have no place on Wikipedia and we have to keep this article blocked to save ourselves from an assured onslaught of vandals and tweakers out to mess up what we've spent our time fixing up. I do see that you're a well-intentioned editor. Maybe the constant jarring of red herrings and such has hardened our hearts. Apologies if we didn't assume your good-faith. Wish you could stay with us—this article is in need of vigilant editors like Aude. -- Veggy (talk) 00:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Well, as I say, some of them are not very intelligent. Perhaps they do not mean well. That second link is interesting, because he seems to have a user page that shows his location. Could relate to the terrorist language. Anyway, I'd spend more time here, but I don't have much free time, and getting a change on this page takes way too much effort. Won't even be able to access a computer for the next few days. As to dealing with the CT, perhaps you should view some of their lectures or films. It would help you understand their intent and their goals, and might help your interaction with them. If nothing else, it's entertaining stuff. Good luck. Out of the office for now. —Slipgrid (talk) 05:55, 25 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
I think you are missing a big point. Repetition. Everything being presented here has been presented before. There is nothing fresh, nothing new. Editors like myself have gotten to the point where we don't want to hear it anymore. Consensus has been reached so many times that we don't feel like defending the same thing again and again. That is why the AbCom is there. That is why editors who refuse to take no for an answer find they can't edit here anymore. I've continually asked for something new, and I have yet to see anything. Please don't force me to view the same trite material over and over and over again. --Tarage (talk) 06:56, 25 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Hi Tarage. Not trying to be mean, but you don't have to be here. You don't have to read anything, and you don't have to respond. If you don't like defending the same thing, that's fine. I just don't see any reason to complain about it. —Slipgrid (talk) 13:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Except if people like me aren't here, you'll make changes to the article that don't reflect consensus. It's happened before, and it will happen again. But lets look at it the other way. How about instead of making the same arguments over and over again, you read the archives and come up with something new to present? I think we'd all like that a lot better. --Tarage (talk) 23:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
What part of "consensus can change" have you failed to understand? And if you don't wish to repeat yourself, then feel free not to contribute to this article or its talk page. If someone is new to this article, you cannot say to them "I'm sorry we have discussed this before, search the archive and don't consider bringing up any points that may have been discussed before" If you don't wish to view the same material again and again, that's OK, you don't have to, you can click that nice little "X" on the top right of your screen and it will all go away. Sennen goroshi (talk) 03:37, 27 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Actually, "We have discussed this before at .../Archive 473#POV. Please don't bring up any points that were rejected there." seems a perfectly good thing to say to a new editor. (To Tarage:We need that FAQ, or at least a global subject index to the archives.)
<snarky remark about the "block user" button being another way to avoid viewing this material over and over again removed> — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

Concluding remark: The people who have brought this issue up have not been able to establish a consensus against using the established terminology; especially in light of articles linking to Islamic terrorism. I have tried to engage them in constructive discussion to reach a compromise, but they have failed to successfully address my points with any meaningful retort and have ceased contributing here altogether despite our continuous replies and arguments. -- Veggy (talk) 20:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)Reply

Seconded. Lets archive this and move on. --Tarage (talk) 21:11, 4 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
As the one who started this I dont care at all if this is closed I stopped contributing to it as it was going nowhere as editors cant see the wood for the trees. You all believe it is a good article even though it fails the GA criteria so close away and rejoice in your hollow victory the only loser is wikipedia. BigDuncTalk 21:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
It fails none of the GA criteria discussed, except stability. Stability fails because a number of editors are unwilling or unable to recognize that the changes they want to make have been discussed and rejected by consensus dozens of times. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:28, 5 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
That sums up exactly what is wrong with this article above, and from an admin, if it fails then it is not a GA. BigDuncTalk 19:14, 5 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
Quite. Are you saying that a bevy of WP:VANDALS can remove an article from GA status?
  • If so, I don't think you'll get consensus.
  • If not, explain why this situation is different.
— Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
No and well you know that is not what I am talking about, but this is the response that editors get all the time when they attempt to make an edit to this article. I made one or maybe two and I get a big red hand warning saying I will be blocked from editing. You try to make an anology such as the one about Washington and editors are jumping around accusing others of wanting to call him a terrorist. This article fails criteria 1b it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation. In no way can anyone say that this sentence On that morning, terrorists affiliated with al-Qaeda hijacked is NPOV, when a simple word change will make it so. ...terrorist and freedom fighter should be avoided unless there is a verifiable citation indicating who is calling a person or group by one of those names in the standard Wikipedia format of "X says Y". That above sentence is the words of the editor who wrote it and doesn't indicate who is calling the hijackers by that name. BigDuncTalk 21:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
Except we have numerous reliable sources that do list them as Terrorists. We have consensus on this issue, as we have seen in the... on... 15+ debates we've had. A quick jog through the archives would show this. To remove an article from GA simply because a handful of editors don't like a single word is preposterous. None of the editors who have worked so hard on this article will let that happen. --Tarage (talk) 22:08, 5 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
But you dont for the sentence I have given there is NO reference to say who is calling them terrorists. It is the POV of the editor who wrote it. Also see WP:OWN and WP:CCC. BigDuncTalk 11:49, 6 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
Read the archives. We've summarized them here, but the clear WP:CONSENSUS is that this article is an exception to the guideline interpretation at WP:TERRORIST. Consensus can change, but not often with the same arguments being presented. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:06, 6 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
Well as I said above you are all welcome to continue the Masquerade of neutrallity here, you can't convice me that sentences like On that morning, terrorists affiliated with al-Qaeda hijacked are neutral no more than I can try to persuade you that it is only the thoughts of the editor. Nobody is saying that the acts commited aren't terrorist in nature nobody wants the removal of the word just that it must have a verifiable citation indicating who is calling a person or group terrorist. BigDuncTalk 17:20, 6 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
And you can continue to plug your ears and scream at the top of your lungs. We have consensus. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it less valid. Either grow up and accept that there are some thing you cannot change, or continue to throw out your 'I'm right because I am' arguments and we'll continue to ignore them. --Tarage (talk) 21:13, 6 August 2008 (UTC)Reply

YouTube

edit

(copying interpolated comment which makes the next response comment meaningless) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

What's wrong with YouTube videos? YouTube is not a source, but a medium. To prohibit links to works you believe are copyrighted on YouTube, you must know that the work is copyrighted and that Fair Use is not valid. You can't remove links just suspecting that it is not Fair Use. What's wrong with blogs? Some blogs present real news and real facts. Most is just personal dribble, but many reputable media organizations have high quality blogs. Again, you are attacking the medium, and not the source. It seems that is a major problem with this article. —Slipgrid (talk) 13:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
YouTube videos are almost certainly copyright violations (for WP:EL, and placement of copyrighted material on YouTube cannot possibly be fair use, unless edited to include the commentary on the video), and cannot be a WP:RS unless the uploader publicly identifies itself, and it still could be a forgery.
Blogs cannot be used, unless the creator is, personally, a WP:RS, and is merely using the blog format to maintain his web site. If user comments are allowed, they cannot be referenced in our articles.
— Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Really, you are mistaken. See WP:YOUTUBE, and note from Wikipedia:Copyrights#Linking_to_copyrighted_works, that you must "know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright." You don't have to prove it's fair use to link to it! You have to prove it's not fair use before you remove the link to it! That's very hard to do. And that's just a link. You can use a source without a link. That is perfectly fine.
Furthermore, most video related to September 11, 2001, is fair use, because it's unique an unrepeatable.
Furthermore, you can cite a TV news source, by referencing the station, and date, and without linking to a video or article. Just because it's published somewhere other than the Internet, doesn't mean that it can not be referenced as a reliable source.
Where do you find a restriction on allowing sites that have user comments? That's just can't be, and I'll go edit it out of policy right now if you can reference it. The fact is, every story on the ABC News site allows user comments. That doesn't mean that ABC News is not RS.
Again, the medium, or lack of medium, does not define the quality of a source. If you can find somewhere in Wikipedia policy that states it does, that would be great! —Slipgrid (talk) 14:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
From WP:YOUTUBE:
  • There is no blanket ban on linking to these sites as long as the links abide by the guidelines on this page (which would happen infrequently).
(Emphasis added).
Most videos considered for inclusion in this article would violate WP:ELNO 2 (if they were to be suggested, the reason they would be suggested would almost certainly be that they were intentionally misleading) and 11 (a user's upload area could be considered a personal web site), in addition to copyright considerations.
Also note WP:ELNO 11, for blogs.
— Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
The "which would happen infrequently" part should probably be removed.
I don't buy that most videos are intentionally misleading.
It's a bit more than a stretch to say YouTube, owned by Google, is a personal website. It's a media platform. Furthermore, and most importantly, it's up to the person removing the video link to prove it's not fair use. —Slipgrid (talk) 15:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
The first two points are arguable, but that last is clearly wrong. It is policy that inclusion of links or information requires justification, particularly if there are copyright considerations. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Reply


The policy clearly states, "if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work." If you don't know that the external website is carrying a work in violation of the creators copyright, then no policy exist to prevent you from linking to that page. Furthermore, you don't have to link to a source to cite it.
The "which would happen infrequently" language is POV, biased, and should be removed.
It is a fact that I don't buy the argument that there is something inherently misleading by the medium of moving pictures. This new technology is often used to mislead people, but it was invented for the exact opposite purpose.
The point is, video as a source is completely legitimate. —Slipgrid (talk) 19:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
You didn't prove any point at all. Any nut can make a video and paste it on YouTube. What vids are you interested in? Post the links. -- Veggy (talk) 19:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
My interest is preventing administrators from arbitrarily removing good sources on poor grounds. All the administrators on this talk page, that I have witnessed, seem to believe a basic medium or tool is somehow banned. It's not the case. You shouldn't perpetrate that myth. When you say you are banning people, that you use a projective and non civil term to describe, because they "cited work on here with links to YouTube videos, blogs," it doesn't appear that you are working in good faith. As I have shown, both mediums (they are not sources, but mediums that host sources), are valid, welcome, and accepted. If you suggest otherwise, or you are telling editors otherwise, then maybe you shouldn't be an administrator. —Slipgrid (talk) 20:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for not answering my question in the least. I think you should browse WP:RELIABLE and WP:SOURCE. Blogs and personal vids are almost unanimously frowned upon. Period. Dot. -- Veggy (talk) 20:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Well, blogs are still a medium, not a source, and not reliable on its own, because it's just software. It's a tool. I know this technology of moving pictures and article logging tools is confusing to some, but if you are going to administrate an online encyclopedia, you should learn about these tools, and learn the difference between a source and a medium.
I'm glad you changed YouTube videos to personal videos. That's a step in the right direction. —Slipgrid (talk) 20:39, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
"I know this technology of moving pictures and article logging tools is confusing to some" That kind of sarcasm is not welcome here. Please cease and desist, or you will find your 9/11 related article editing privileges removed. --Tarage (talk) 21:50, 29 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

I find this interesting as, in regards to 911, a lot of YouTube videos that cover the topic are not reported in the media (RS) due to their reluctance to give credence to conspiracy theories. For example there is a recent video where a demolition expert claims the fact that the towers windows were not blown out PROVES there were no explosives yet videos of his own demolitions show that CD explosions almost never blow windows out. While the original claim can be reported in the article the YouTube counterclaim can't which can lead to bias by omission. I've seen it happen several times where a claim (pro or con) is made then it takes months, if at all, before a RS can be found to allow a rebuttal although it has existed on YouTube all along. I feel the context and reliability of the video should be the criteria for acceptance. Wayne (talk) 06:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

There is no copyright problem related with YouTube. It's a myth. When a user uploads a video to YouTube, they are giving the copyright to YouTube. Read the YouTube policy. And, if that person was not the original copyright holder, the the original holder can have the video removed with a DMCA form letter. We are not lawyers here. And, even if you are, Wikipedia, or Wikimedia, did not hire you as counsel. It's urban legend that one can not link to YouTube; urban legend that's worst than any of the 9/11 CT. So, don't allow others to promote these absurd myths! —Slipgrid (talk) 12:52, 29 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Regardless, you have just pointed out the problem with YouTube videos. Anyone can upload them. This makes them almost always OR. That is another reason we don't use them. The same with Blogs. --Tarage (talk) 21:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

GA red flags, other than the obvious TERRORIST issue

edit
Latest comment: 16 years ago12 comments3 people in discussion
  1. Language and style. The overuse of the adjective "massive"; three instances, none of which is being appropriately used.
  2. Date formatting; partial dates should not be linked, and autoformatting is no longer considered necessary. These contribute to the messy, overlinked appearance of the article at present.
  3. More NPOV concerns; eg "...the hijackers used box cutters to murder passengers... ". Murder is a legal term that is not I think being used properly here.
    Done. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 23:45, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  4. Overlinking in general. It is questionable what the links to, for example, GTE, airphone and mobile phone add to the article. For this example I think one link would be fine. --John (talk) 20:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
    I took care of the overlinking in the example you provided, but there is more work to be done throughout the article. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 23:45, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
    Nice work ICB! Definitely looking better. --John (talk) 06:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
    Now done. Thanks for the encouraging words, John! Ice Cold Beer (talk) 04:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
One more thing, there's need to look over WP:NBSP and comply. I see some problems with this in the article. -- Veggy (talk) 20:20, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Done, I think. Someone might want to check my work here, sometimes those things are hard to catch. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 04:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • One problem I noticed while skimming the article: when we use "Mohammed" or "Mohamed", we should make it clear which of the three Moham(m)eds (Khalid, Atta, Atef) we are talking about. Otherwise, we risk confusing the reader. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 07:18, 25 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
We should use last names only. That would take care of Atta and Atef. On the Flight 93 article, I used Sheikh Mohammed to note KSM. -- Veggy (talk) 14:12, 25 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps it would be better to use Sheikh Mohammed in this article too. What do you think? Ice Cold Beer (talk) 23:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
I think that would be a good idea. -- Veggy (talk) 00:27, 26 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Done. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 04:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)Reply

Kept

edit
Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

In light of edits by the initiator like this as well as both a failure to turn consensus away from the use of "terrorist" and the lack of participation on the part of these users to continue the discussion, I am keeping the Good Article status. -- Veggy (talk) 21:21, 20 August 2008 (UTC)Reply

Add topic
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:September_11_attacks/GA1&oldid=1140124662"