Talk:Serbian Air Force and Air Defence/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

Orao is a subsonic aircraft and can break the sound barrier only in a dive.

According to Air Forces Monthly only three to four Mig-21s are flying, one of them a trainer.--216.52.73.254 20:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

See, here is the problem with this article: Aircraft in the Serbian AF are constantly being taken in and out of service as they are rotated and repaired by Moma Stanojovic facility. So if someone a month ago reported 24 Mig-21s, that number is already outdated. It is impossible to say that they have X number of aircraft of type Y, because they are always taking aircraft out of operational status and putting other aircraft in operational status as they are repaired. For this reason we cannot say how many operational aircraft Serbia has, we can only say how many they have in service, and maybe only a very vague estimate of how many of those might be operational. Edrigu 23:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Here [1] is a table which lists total number of each type of aircraft delivered and how many are still in service, and it seems pretty uptodate. Maybe we should include this table? Edrigu 00:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Mig-29

I would like to ask who ever is writing and the end of my post that “this argument is not a strong one” to not do so because that is and opinion if you have any disagreements post them here, I'am not Serbian but I have been trying to keep this article as much authentic as possible and New I have just posted some proof about your Mig-29 Gon4z 01:10, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

67.180.109.56

User 67.180.109.56 stop adding your own options tot eh article they are not true and are not facts they are just what you think this is the last time i will warn you get a profile because if not then your IP address will be suspended from editing any article Gon4z 23:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Future

JAS-39 Grippen costs $50 million EACH how could Serbia afford 20 of them which will cost $1 billion with a military budget of $600 million that is delusional, I mean only twon countries own JAS-39 Grippen’s which is Sweden the maker of the aircraft and South Africa which still has not received most of them yet. The other two countries operating them are Hungary and Czech Republic both have only 12 in Service and both courtiers don’t own them they are only on lease for a 5 – 10 years and just that cost more a year than Serbia can afford, we have to be realistic when it comes to this.

Serbia like all the other Ex-Yugo states & Albania depends on military aid and donations the only possible future jets for Serbia are 12 – 20 F-16A/B Block 15 from one of the Dutch states or USA even these will be given for around $5 million each and maybe a couple donated and why is the F-16 a possibility is because 4 Serbian pilots each year are trained on F-16A/B Block 15 in Italy so that is the only possible future jet nothing else. This is not including the 5 Mig-29 that are being overhauled

As for the helicopters Serbia is trying to get into NATO not Warsaw pact there has been no announcement of any new purchases being made of Mi-171 or any helicopters, there are only the real possibility of donations and most likely are the IAR 330 witch is a Romanian copy of the Sa.330 or donations of Sa.330 or Sa.322 from France, nothing else is a possibility for now. And even these donations are somewhere around 10 -15 aircraft.

The only transport aircraft that is possible is the G-222 as its very cheep and they will most likely come from Greece either a donation or a cheep purchase and no more than 5 will be bough because it’s a breach of the down size regulation.

Also there is no and I men No purchases being made by the Serbian military until 2012 the only new weaponry that can come into Serbia’s arsenal are domestic made and even those will be in small number and mainly ground weaponry.

The G-4 will be upgraded after 2010 because of economical issues at this time

These speculation on purchasing a huge amount of aircraft is a much of Bull Crap, Serbia like all other Ex-Yugo states has to cut down its military forces and switch to western weaponry as soon as possible. I remember a while back this article use to say Serbia will purchase 50x Su-30 which is a bunch of CRAP

Look I don’t mean to offend but some of the things being put into this article are pure nonsense, it would be like me saying Macedonia or Albania is getting 20 – 30x F-22 jets very delusional 82.35.34.170

Dear 82.35.34.170 who I am under heavy suspicion is former member Gonz4....

your opinon on "all ex Yugo republics should switch to Western weaponry" is just that...Your opinon and does not reflect that of the Serbian government or any one else who actually matters.

Second your claims as to what should and should not be purchased are your unsourced claims...which we do not care for. Do you have official reports from the Serbian MOD or any other Government institution to back your claims? If you are not a expert or do not understand...which you strongly don't seem to, then don't bother contributing.

• Warsaw pact does not exist anymore (buying Russian weaponry does not imply "joining" some pact...)
• Serbia does not depend on any military donations and has received no weapons,vehicle's,equipment from any nation as it does not require them, I suggest you study up a bit before making such claims.
• Serbia has already downsized the army to meet Dayton accords in 2000, further downsizing is for the purpose of modernization and removal of obsolete and excess equipment.

we are quite aware of financing problems in the air force (which is why we have identified them) however sourced claims from the MOD have been made well aware of that increased defense budget in the following 4-5 years will greatly improve the defense force due to high economic success.

P.S next time try and refrain from using (Crap,bull crap,BS,bunch of crap etc...) when making a argument, if you wish to be taken seriously... Buttons 11:27, June 13 2007 (UTC)

modernization

• The Serbian AF and AD comander General-major Dragan Katanić has told that Serbian AF will after modernization of 5 MiG-29s, one An-26 and 7 helicopters modernized another four An-26s and it will get new fighters until 2015. The possible fighters, according General-major Dragan, are Mirage 2000, JAS-39, F-16 Block 15, MiG-29 SMT and Su-30. Srđan Popović 17. June,2007.

can you please provide some source as to the possible new fighters as it seems to me non believable with no source, until a source is provided then please lets not add our wishes.80.80.170.122 (talk) 01:15, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Air Defense

Serbian Air defense operates only SA-6 (Kub) and SA-3 (Neva) SAM's. The other anti-aircraft defense systems are used by army air defense units. user:Srđan Popović

What is the source for the second f-16 and a f-18 shot down during the Kosovo War? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.91.1.43 (talk) 20:49, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no 2nd F-16 and there is surely no F/A-18 shot down in Serbia, the only aircraft were 1x F-16 & 1x F-117 and several UAV's, no cruise missiles and no F/A-18 were shot down during the NATO campaign.80.80.170.122 (talk) 02:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

F/A-18 and second F-16 were shot down by Republika Srpska Air Defence durign the Bosnian war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.101.189.180 (talk) 08:29, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

No, they weren’t. Only one F-117 and one F-16 were shot down. 86.3.134.204 (talk) 09:39, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Usage of copyrighted material

This article contains copyrighted material.

Here is the list of used pictures, and original sources:

Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:18848_936600000_NEVA-11.jpg
MyCity : http://www.mycity.co.yu/uploads/18848_936600000_NEVA-11.jpg

Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Utva75_SRB.jpg
MyCity : http://www.mycity.co.yu/uploads/18848_519122897_Utva-12.jpg

Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:An-26_SRB2.JPG
MyCity : http://www.mycity.co.yu/uploads/18848_1445034371_An-rondela.jpg

Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:18848_1205475451_obaranje-F-117-i-F.jpg
MyCity : http://www.mycity.co.yu/uploads/18848_1205475451_obaranje-F-117-i-F-16-1.jpg

Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:18848_292617660_KUB-3.jpg
MyCity : http://www.mycity.co.yu/uploads/18848_292617660_KUB-3.jpg

We (MyCity team) are willing to share our material as all the content on the site is published under Creative Commons license, but according to the license you are obligated to post a link to the source of pictures.

What CC license do you choose? Anyways, I suggest you and the MyCity team send an email to permissions-en AT wikimedia DOT org so we can document the granting of the license. Thanks and sorry we have taken some of your material without your prior knowledge and authorization. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 18:08, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

MiG-27???

I think that the info about the MiG-27 in Serbian Air Force is fake. - Kos93

Formatting of the article

Hi there, I've been trying to improve the readability of this article with various corrections to spelling, grammar and vocabulary. I've also been trying to seperate some of the lists into actual bulleted lists in the wikipedia style. Somebody has reverted my edits back to incomprehensible lumps of huge sentences with loads of commas.

It might be I made some errors in the lists as it was not at all clear what the facts are in the text provided. If someone disagrees with using lists and thinks the paragraphs are better then please explain your point of view here in the discussion, rather than us just having an edit war on the article.

I seem to have reverted someone's correction of my edits with respect to these lists ... my apologies for that, I hadn't realised exactly what had happened in the history until after I'd done it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.201.152.192 (talk) 10:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

... and spelling

I just reverted an edit which relates to the above. Please explain your reasoning for changing the appearance of that section rather than just editing it.

I would have tried to pick out the genuine facts and information that was introduced in the edit, but the spelling and grammar were such that I couldn't understand a lot of it. I know that is perfectly explainable by the fact it was probably someone working in their second language, but in any case if you are unsure please use the spelling support available.

If in doubt, stick it on the discussion page and someone will help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.201.152.220 (talk) 00:25, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

.

I'm thinking about making it better quality (coat of arms) yet i cant find a better version anywhere.Mike Babic (talk) 17:13, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone know any information so someone can start a section of UAVs or Air-To-Air Misiles —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aleksandar 1995 (talk • contribs) 02:47, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Why?

Why do you (presumably?) children feel the need to lie and add things out of your own phantasy or wishful thinking that you have read somewhere? Who do you think you are fooling? Yourselves? "Foreigners"? Into what? Into thinking that the Serbian Air Force is more powerful than it is? For what gain? Just leave it realistic with the real numbers. I see you clowns:

- adding Kobac aircraft (which don't exist, only one demonstrator is being dragged around, but it isn't even a prototype and it doesn't fly, and it sure is not in the inventory of the Air Force) into the inventory, with a made up number of "2+".

- removing the mention that the Mig-21 is being retired in 2013 (to be more precise, most of the single seaters are being retired in March, the UM will still fly for a short while) and adding that they are being modernized, referencing articles that themselves state that these aircraft are being retired, so you are clearly lying.

- always putting modernized behind the Mig-29s, even though you full well know that only the radio has been changed to a newer one and a NATO compatible IFF has been installed, there was no "modernization" in the sense of higher combat capability, it was just an overhaul. The radar isn't better than before, it doesn't support new weapons, nothing.

- claiming that Mig-29Ms "have already been ordered", even though no such thing has happened and you can not provide a source for it, which is against wikipedia rules. So again, just your wet dreams. You are also referencing tabloid articles with vague formulations and speculations that do not provide confirmation that what you claim on this wikipedia article, has actually happened.

- putting Serbian UAVs which are still under development, like the Pegaz, of which only one prototype exists, with made up numbers in the inventory.

- Changing the numbers of aircraft in the inventory and the total number of aircraft to outdated numbers that have no relation to today's reality anymore, for what? Does that make you feel strong?

- Removing mentions that for example all but 2 An-26 have been refurbished and that the rest are grounded. And it's always the same guy with the same IP adress that does that. Same goes for the Yak-40, which are ALL grounded for good.

- Writing that the G-4 will be modernized to "G-4MD standard" (What is that standard? What does it entail? Something can't be a standard if it isn't defined. So for now, MD is just an empty phrase word that was used for propaganda purpose by the former defense minister, and not an actual program). And even though in the past you were modest and used the 15 number that was circulated by clueless people in the media, now you have just gone ahead and put 25 in there. WTF is wrong with you children?

- 15 Lasta aircraft have been ordered, yet someone put a + behind the 15. WHY? Why in the name of god do you feel the need to do that?

- Why do you remove the mention of how many J-22 are overhauled and flying?

- Why do you write that over 60 Mig-21 are in service, when everyone full well knows that only around 6 aircraft are actually flying?

- Who ever believes that 33 J-22 Orao are able to fly is a fool. It would be good if a whole squadron of 12 could actually take off tomorrow if it needed, but it can't.

- What does a picture of a private airclub have to do with the Serbian Air Force? Get serious, this isn't a forum where you can go and lie to each other.

This whole page is basically just a dreambook. Nothing else. ALL the numbers are just made up wet dreams.

Does the reality hurt your inferiority complex? Or why do you feel the need to do that? More often than not, as a Serb you have to feel ashamed for your countrymen, especially the young males.

I am telling you the reality looks like this:

In April 2013, the Serbian Air Force will consist of 2 Mig-29B, 1 Mig-29UB, 1-2 Mig-21UM, and that's that for supersonic aircraft.

Then there's between 6-10 J-22 that are able to fly, and around the same number of G-4.

1 An-2 and 2 An-26 make up the transport aircraft fleet.

1 new Piper Seneca that has been damaged already, but is used for air photography.

5 Lasta and a couple of Utva-75 trainer aircraft.

Some 40 Gazelle, of which more than half aren't airworthy.

7 old Mi-8 and 2 Mi-8MT (Mi-17)

And that is that. Nothing else that the former Yugoslavia once purchased and that is still physically inside of Serbia, is able to fly, nor will it ever fly again. And you adding made up phantasy numbers won't change that. You are not fooling anyone but yourself.

Also, no new fighter aircraft has been ordered, yet, no matter what someone on a Forum says. They are lying there just like you are lying here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.231.40.133 (talk) 12:43, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

ja sam napiso 7.000 vojnika zato sto je to prava brojka informacije morete videti na srpskoj vikepediji poz;)

Ti si najgori lik. Uvek editujes i stavljas neka sranja koja nisu tacna. Koji ti je kurac? Srpska vikipedija ne samo da je pogresna, nego i nije nikakav izvor (niti ona ima izvor, sta je inace potrebno kao potvrda). Zato prestani da editujes i menjas brojeve, retardu jedan napaljeni.

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Request for comments

There is a request for comments that is likely of interest to this article at Talk:Rajka_Baković#Request for comments. --- Otr500 (talk) 16:25, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Summarizing

There were a lot of edits on this page and this is the result summarized: 1)Serbia had 5 mig 29s after the war but one crashed many years ago thus only 4 remaining. 2)Russia donated 6 old mig 29s and Buks to Serbia which will be delivered in March this year 3)Belarus is also giving 8 old mig 29s and two Buks to Serbia, delivery schedule TBD 2)3)The migs are probably of the same initial version as Serbia has now, and will have to be repaired to flying condition at Serbia's cost 4)This will make a total of 18 aircraft, thus one small scaled squadron. Given Serbia's very limited economic capabilities, the purchase of new aircraft was not possible in the first place(low per capita GDP) and such donation on condition of paying repair costs was the only possible way. This number might be the maximum Serbia can maintain at its economy scale, if we ignore that Western jets cost mire to maintain. The purpose would be first strike on ground weaponries such as missile launchers if an aggression by Croatia or Kosovo take place , as it was shown in 1999 and other occassions that the Mig 29 cannot survive air combat. It lacks a modern radar/fire control system, the export version in particular. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noob2013 (talk • contribs) 02:00, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

is the 7000 byte chart supposed to be here or deleted? I am not sure anymore

Looking through the diffs I can't tell whether the chart should be included or not. I know what I think, but what want to know what was before. L3X1 My Complaint Desk 20:15, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

It's supposed to be here. 212.178.251.41 (talk) 00:51, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Content dispute 29 May 2017

Hi again Thomas.W and Evandro321. I'm dropping in from the dispute at Equipment of the Serbian Army to see if we can hopefully talk through the issues on this article and avoid full protection. Thomas.W, I noticed you objected to Evandro321's sources in this series of edits. It looks to me like Evandro321 didn't add sources in that edit, only repositioned sources that were already being used. If these sources are a problem, can we find better ones?

I also see that Evandro321 added a number of images to the tables in the article, but way further back in the history (here) it was suggested that there shouldn't be images within the tables, and as an editorial (non-administrative) note I tend to agree. I also noticed over on Commons that a number of images that Evandro321 added were removed for copyright violations. I've removed the images from the table and fixed some formatting problems that Evandro321 introduced.

What's left to do? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:37, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 June 2017

Tiho43 (talk) 17:08, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

In January 2016, after Croatia's plans to purchase MGM-140 ATACMS tactical missiles from the U.S.,

FALSE Croatia didnt had any plans for such order - the very rest its " Croatian Yellow Press usuall rumors " I know for fact because i live in Croatia. Many thx Wiki

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. There are non-Croatian reliable sources announcing the intended purchase. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:43, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2019

Yugoslavia Bungynik (talk) 12:03, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Roadguy2 (talk) 13:49, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Russian donations

I made this edit. I will like to explain myself.

Military industry is a serious bussiness. However, it is not like buying/selling cars. Specially when involves governaments and long stories behind. As far as I know, countries deal military equipment in numerous ways, often to hide their real values for different reasons. Often countries give or receve military equipment within country debt adjustments. Or, special prices are made in exchange for other goods or services. Anyway, my point here is the use of the word "donation". I went on to google and I found out that the expression started with Russian website published in Serbia, sputnjik.rs, in 2017, making a sensacionalistic title how Russia is giving as gift the MiG-29s and Antonovs. Next we see how around 20 other Serbian websites literally copy/paste the story. Hardly any noteces the conflict of interess which the website sputnjik has. By being a Russian website published in Serbia, it has a goal of promoting friendly relations between the two countries. Nothing wrong with that obviously, however, using the words "gift" (later slightly altered to "donation" here on wiki) should correspond to the real meaning of the word. The MiG-29s for instance were given with the condition that Serbia should pay their repair and upgrade to certain company and so and so...

A "gift" for me is something that I buy and give to my girlfriend and she takes it and smiles. Like a pair of earings which she can use right away.

However, if I give her something, like a broken car, a Corsa from late 1990s, and I tell her that she needs to take it to my buddy Mike to his car repair garage (and only Mike´s) and pay 1.000 USD to make its engine work, plus around 500 bucks more to upgrade it to pass the inspection regarding wheels, lights, pollution emission, etc., well, I guess my gf would smack me in my face if I asked her if she liked the "gift". "Hey sorry baby, I meant donation... this is your bday donation from me... wait, why are you crying and running away from me?"

But of course, if it was some desperate girl wanting by all means to get that guy for some reason, she will obviously go around telling how sweet he is and how great his gift is! How lucky she is to have somebody to give her such a gift, despite all costs of repair limitation of having to give the repair expense to my friend Mike garage without option of looking for maybe some cheaper.

Then her father of course (Vucic) who wants by all means to show to the world how great relation he has with his family, to who´se father he works for: "Oh, indeed, such a spectacular gift. I even feel ashamed that my daughter accepts such a generous donation for free... despite him having said the car gift is part of the technical details of my contract in his firm, and he will charge me trough them.... but its such a lovely gift" ... pardpn, donation.

The source is here: rtv.rs. We can all see the presidentand minister going from "gift" to "part of a technical-militar agreement".

Finally, we see an exemple of balkans.aljazeera.net protecting themselves from making claims, by clearly starting the news with "The media says..." and then "The information comes from the website sputnjik which doesn´t cite a source..."

So, from what I know how our rules work here, we should at least take an approach similar to aljazeera and take with caution claims that such expensive military aircraft are "gifts" or "donations" when sources using those claims clearly have in their interest presenting the situation that way. I would rather go with the defense minister that despite being next to the president and having to share his enthusiasm, at least protected himself saying "it is part of a military-technical agreement" instead of free gifts, loves and kisses... FkpCascais (talk) 05:54, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

New choppers?

Serbian MOD ordered 4 Mi-35M helicopters from Russia last year, they are expected to arrive in early 2020. More info can be found here. Just wondering why there's no mention of that on the Wiki article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mvelebit (talk • contribs) 10:16, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Those will be added to the article when they arrive. Karen Kho (talk) 19:19, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 August 2021

Serbia operates 14 mig 29 not 9. 3 are used for training. 62.4.42.3 (talk) 18:05, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:15, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Confirmation of delivery of Mig-29s from Belarus

Please update the number of operational Mig-29s to 14 as 4 aircrafts were delivered from Belarus in April 2021.

https://www.scramble.nl/military-news/serbia-receives-2-new-mig-29s-from-belarus

https://rs.n1info.com/english/news/belarus-delivers-four-russian-made-mig-29-planes-to-serbia/

Semi-protected edit request on 4 August 2022

109.245.37.213 (talk) 15:12, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

There are 14 Mig 29 aircraft, not 13

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. MadGuy7023 (talk) 15:15, 4 August 2022 (UTC)