Talk:Sfeka d'yoma

S'feika d'yoma

Discussion begun at User talk:IZAK#S'feika d'yoma moved to here:

Thanks for this. At one point, someone created yom tov sheni shel galuyot, so these two should probably be merged in one spot or the other. I didn't template it, but maybe you could look into that? Thanks, and Shabbat Shalom. StevenJ81 (talk) 12:42, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• (P.S.: I am answering you here but I am also copying this discussion to the talk page at sefeika deyuma. Let's continue the discussion there.) Hi there Steve, no need to jump to merge them because they work in different ways. Sefeika deyuma is the Halachic reason that people sit in a Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret while Shemini Etzeret itself is NOT a "yom sheni shel galuyot"!! Also, there is a connection between Hoshana Rabba and Shemini Atzeret that is based on sefeika deyuam but has nothing to do with yom sheni shel galuyot!! There is a connection, but sefeika deyuma and yom sheni shel galuyot are not the same thing. Additionally, sefeika deyuma is a problem that starts in Eretz Yisrael because the Sanhedrin is unsure (i.e. it has a safek) when it will sanctify the new moon. If eidim come on day one of the new moon, then day one is Rosh chodesh but if eidim come on day two of the new moon then day two is rosh chodesh and not day one. All the while and prior to eidim coming there remained a sefeika deyuma IN ERETZ YISRAEL itself as to when eidim would come that has NOTHING to do with the galut. Only subsequently when problems arose and it became difficult to inform spread out communities, the sages introduced a fixed calendar that took into account the possibility that rosh chodesh could fall out on either of day one or day tow of when the new moon begins, thus they also introduced the need to observe two days of yom tov outside of Eretz Yisrael and and is how it has has remained (except for Reform). So I would proceed very cautiously before mixing sefeika deyuma with yom tov sheni shel galuyot. Don't jump to fix things before some good discussions. Thanks again. IZAK (talk) 13:43, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
• Likewise with Chanuka, it is observed eight days even in Israel, but with each day being a sefeika deyuma, some hold that the eighth day both in Israel and outside is only observed because of sefeika deyuma and has nothing to do with yom tov sheni shel galuyot. I am sure that we can think of more difference as we give this more thought. IZAK (talk) 14:03, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• I don't argue they're the same, but I'm not sure they're fully separate topics, either. I'm not sure yom tov sheni shel galuyot shouldn't be a section of sfeka d'yoma.
• What is your source that sfeka d'yoma applies to Chanukah? This implies that Chanukah should really only be seven days. But it has been eight days since its establishment, and the Apocryphal book 2 Maccabees suggests that it was eight days to substitute for the inability to observe Sukkot that year, including Shemini Atzeret. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:18, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

What does sfeka d'yoma have to do with Hanukkah?? Debresser (talk) 16:19, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Shavua tov. As far as I'm aware, nothing. That's why I asked. The only thing I'm wondering is if he's thinking this way because the k'riah is different in Aretz and chu"l. But I think that's simply part of the matter of resemblance to Sukkot, not because there is actually sfeka d'yoma with Hanukkah. StevenJ81 (talk) 00:31, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi there Steven and Debresser: I came across this:

• "...Avudraham56 indicates that even with regard to classic rabbinical laws, we rule stringently in a sefeika deyoma. Avudraham asks why we do not celebrate nine days of Chanukah in the Diaspora. He answers that this is so because we know the proper dates. Clearly, then, were we unsure of the date, Avudraham would rule stringently, obligating us to celebrate a ninth day of Chanukah. In fact, Minchat Chinukh57 rules that in the future, when we will again sanctify the months through the testimony of witnesses, places which have a sefeika deyoma will certainly celebrate nine days of Chanukah, as they did in the past!..."Purim: A Halakhic Overview - Part I 1 Divrei Kabbala by Rabbi Doniel Schreiber and
• "... QUESTION: Why is the eighth day of Chanukah called "Zot Chanukah"?...there is a popular question asked by the Beit Yosef that Chanukah should only be celebrated seven days since they found a single flask of oil which was sufficient for one day, and thus, the miraculous kindling was only for seven days? One of the answers is that Chanukah is really only seven days and the holiday lasts eight days because of sefeika deyoma - a doubt as to which day was declared as Rosh Chodesh and thus a lack of clarity as to which day of the month is really the 25th of Kislev (see p. 42). Most commentaries do not accept this theory, and therefore the eighth day is called "Zot Chanukah" - "This is Chanukah" - to emphasize that it is an actual day of the eight-day celebration and not merely a day celebrated due to ambiguity in the calendar...."Sichos in English: Vedibarta Bam — And You Shall Speak of Them: Chanukah: Zot Chanukah by Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky

The core point being is that sefeika deyuma can apply/applies to ANY day on the Jewish calendar because that is the nature of the days being subject to rosh chodesh having awaited eidim in order to come into effect. IZAK (talk) 03:13, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Your core point is definitely correct. The question is whether the 8 days of Hanukkah are related to that. I remember some 13 answers why Hanukkah is 8 days and not 7, but the answer that it is related to sfeka d'yoma does not strike me as an accepted one, more like a da'at yachid (another halakhic term). Debresser (talk) 10:01, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

The Avudraham clearly seems to hold that 8 days is not related to sfeka d'yoma (since he would add a 9th day). Just stating the obvious. Debresser (talk) 10:03, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi Debresser, you are correct, but the point is that the notion of sfeka d'eyuma is relevant to the above discussions, not only necessarily to final conclusions. As you well know in a lomdisha shakla vetarya ("learned debate") , havei amninas ("presumptions") are common and even required routes to arriving at maskones ("conclusions") and are therefore important and relevant. And I was pointing out to Steven that it is therefore wrong to connect the subject of sfeka d'yuma exclusively with yom tov sheni golius because given the way the chazal were koveia ("fixed") the luach ("calendar")-- ad bias goel ("till the messiah comes"), sfeka d'yuma is nogeia ("applies") to every day of the year, not just to yom tov sheni shel golius. Yasher koach for your input! IZAK (talk) 07:22, 5 November 2013 (UTC)