Talk:Shō Tai

Under construction

I intend to return to work on this article over the next several days, using sources such as George Kerr's Okinawa: the History of an Island People, and others. I would much appreciate it if no one made any major edits to this article until I have had the chance to contribute what I can. Thank you. LordAmeth (talk) 20:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Long since no longer under construction. LordAmeth (talk) 19:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Shang

An anonymous IP editor today deleted the Mandarin reading of the king's name, with the edit summary "He doesn't have the name of China." As I have reverted that change, I would like to state a defense for my position, namely that the Ryukyu Kingdom was a tributary state under the suzerainty of Imperial China throughout its existence, and that every king of Ryukyu received formal investiture in his position and title as king from officials representing the Chinese Imperial Court. Being that Shō is the Japanese pronunciation of the surname 尚, and not the Chinese pronunciation, we must recognize that Shō is just as valid as Shang, since the King Shō/Shang Tai was equally a vassal under China and Japan (Satsuma) both. LordAmeth (talk) 19:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Marquis vs Marquess

@Jabberjawjapan: Although you are correct in that English uses "marquess", most reliable sources use the French spelling in relation to Shō Tai, i.e. Marquis. also, I found a source stating that his rank of marquis was established in 1884, Kerr page 397. Before then he was basically an honored guest. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 01:05, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Ok. Re orthography, yes, it often happens to change over location and time (I guess Francophilia was 'in vogue' in the Victorian era), and is a primary reason for spelling differences between the American/British varieties, but unless the Marquess page is changed, and the Kazoku one as well, then I believe that it should currently mirror those pages (but with a note re the then contemporary usage) for consistency. Jabberjawjapan (talk) 01:28, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

@Jabberjawjapan: Well even now, I'm an American and thought marquess looked odd (or maybe this is the British spelling?), but either way we should probably just go with the Wikipedia consensus. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 02:55, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

The Marquess page states that "In Great Britain and Ireland, the correct spelling of the aristocratic title of this rank is marquess (although for aristocratic titles on the European mainland, the French spelling of marquis is often used in English)." Given that famous French aristocrats such as Marquis de Lafayette or Marquis de Sade are quite well known in the US, perhaps that might help explain it... Jabberjawjapan (talk) 03:53, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

I had an idea - would it just be easier to use the term Kōshaku instead, given that the term Marquess seems clunky? Jabberjawjapan (talk) 06:57, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Kazoku title creation

Also for the post-1879 Marquess rank, the Kazoku page states that the title system was not created until 1884, hence Sho Tai could not (AFAIK) have been made a Marquess in 1879, so it could be (safely?) inferred he was therefore a generic Kazoku between 1879-1884. Jabberjawjapan (talk) 00:09, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'll look into it and get back to you, but my sources about Shō Tai only indicate that he was given the Peerage rank of Marquis, presumably immediately. I'll try to find a dedicated source about the kazoku system. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 00:19, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

This source (http://www.unterstein.net/or/docs/JapanPeers.pdf) may help, but is partly written in French and some lists are noted as incomplete (and Sho Tai or Okinawa/Ryukyu does not seem to be included). Jabberjawjapan (talk) 00:58, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

@Jabberjawjapan: I speak French so it was no problem, but all this document tells me is that Shō Tai and his descendants weren't included in the House of Peers. Also, I did verify that Shō Tai received his rank of marquis in 1884, but I don't see that he was given a rank before then. Prince Ie and Prince Nakajin were "granted the status of peers in Japan" the day the kingdom was annexed, basically allowing them to keep their stipends, and they became barons in 1884. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 01:17, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

I have just altered some recent edits from today to match the dates. Hopefully this is ok - it is not my basic intention to unilaterally "kick open doors and stomp around someone else's house" so to speak, but merely make similar details on different pages consistent. Also, while we are here, should the 1884 date be referenced (as you cited) on these pages as well? Thanks. Jabberjawjapan (talk) 01:50, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

@Jabberjawjapan: It's totally fine and encouraged. And we can cite it, are you wanting the citation on the Shō Tai article or on another? Or both? ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 03:03, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Shō Tai should be fine, since he was the one affected by it all, where an appropriate reference to "Kerr page 397" would suffice. And why not add those other useful details (re Ie/Nakajin) too, since they seem helpful in explaining the transition process too. Jabberjawjapan (talk) 03:33, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Actually, I have just checked the corresponding page in Japanese and it gives 2 May 1885 as the date (not sure why we didn't think of that earlier). The marquess page (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/侯爵) clearly agrees with that dating as well. Jabberjawjapan (talk) 08:07, 23 March 2017 (UTC)