Talk:Shaul Ladany

Fact disputed

... But in December 1944, he was saved by American Jews. They paid a ransom to have a number of Jews including him and his parents released from the concentration camp, at which 100,000 Jews had already been killed, including Anne Frank.

Anne Frank wasn't already dead in December 1944. She perished in early March 1945.- Gilliam (talk) 04:56, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Given that we have the issue that wp focuses on what the RSs say, and not "truth," perhaps there is a way to craft around it. Say ... change it to "already been killed, and at which Anne Frank was killed." That doesn't do damage to the sentence, and doesn't go against the RS source.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:02, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

The relevant question is whether we choose to include information that is in clear contradiction to other RS or whether that only serves to confuse the user of WP. There were no gas chambers at Belsen according to multiple (secondary) reliable sources. The total number of people (other than Soviet POWs) who died there is estimated at around 50,000 - so 100,000 Jews killed there is also in contradiction to the current view of historical analysis. It is therefore questionable whether this material should be in here, especially when stated as fact rather than as an attributed quote.Drow69 (talk) 14:58, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

If you have RS coverage of Ladany that contradicts this RS-support fact (w regard to RS refs re Ladany), reflect that as well. Otherwise, on wp we avoid wp:synthesis. Which is what you are describing.Epeefleche (talk) 20:18, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

There are two issues: one is the number of deaths at Bergen-Belsen while the other is Shaul Ladany's claim to have been in the gas chamber just before being freed in December 1944. On the former, the consensus is in the main article: "almost 20,000 Soviet prisoners of war and a further 50,000 inmates died there, with up to 35,000 of them dying of typhus in the first few months of 1945" which is consistent with the Scotsman link here saying "the place where 70,000 people died". The Miami News "100,000 Jews had already been slaughtered" is grossly wrong, especially for the 1944 position, and it is dubious that of the contradictory sources the incorrect one is used as fact in this article. On the gas chamber issue, Shaul Ladany certainly said in his book "I actually went into the gas chamber, but was reprieved" but as there were no gas chambers in Bergen-Belsen, it should not be presented unchallenged. 09:08, 27 January 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.24.25 (talk)

Unfortunately, human beings confabulate. It is notable that Ladany claims his relatives were made into soap, a thing that didn't happen, and that he claims to have been in an SS gas chamber and survived, a thing that also didn't happen. There has long been a disappointing strain of camp survivors who improve their stories by claiming to have survived the gas chamber. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/auschwitz-survivor-gena-turgel-walked-out-gas-chamber-alive-n293496 At Bergen-Belsen, there doesn't seem to have been a gas chamber, as it was a concentration camp and Nazi policy was to place the extermination camps in the occupied East and not in Germany, but the eight-year-old Ladany may have misunderstood and misremembered a delousing procedure or something. It is awkward that no RS interviewer has challenged him on this, so the article is left with an obviously false claim that makes no sense. Ladany also makes the false claim that his release from Bergen-Belsen was due to 'American Jews' paying a 'ransom' -- simply not possible in the world of 1944 -- when in fact his family had moved from Belgrade to Budapest and were clearly part of the 'Kasztner train' group, whose freedom was bought not by Americans but by 150-odd Hungarian Jews paying a bribe to the SS of about $1,000 each (multiply by perhaps 75 for current values) to cover their own release and that of ten poorer Jews per donor. Ladany and his family were shipped from Budapest to Bergen-Belsen in July 1944, then to Switzerland (after further negotiation) in December 1944, so they were presumably Kasztner Jews. Nothing to do with the Americans. Ladany seems to have said that simply for reasons of Israeli-US politics (and because the Kasztner deal, involving bribery and a degree of collusion with the SS, is controversial -- so controversial that Kasztner was murdered on that account) and, again, no one has challenged him. This means the article is necessarily misleading due to WP rules. Khamba Tendal (talk) 17:52, 21 September 2018 (UTC)