Talk:Shaun Bailey, Baron Bailey of Paddington

Comment

Sorry. I nominated this article for deletion but have totally forgotten my password. This is a page about a candidate for elected office who has no other notability. There is clear precedent that candidates for office are not sufficiently notable unless there is some other claim to notability. I don't think any other claim is sufficiently asserted here - it really just seems to be a vanity page. 86.144.83.215 (talk) 00:44, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

There appeared to be copyvio from his personal website, so I have done a partial tidy up, quoting third party references. Snowman (talk) 15:26, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Promotional tone

This edit by Widget365 (talk · contribs) has some good links, but looks like it's way too promotional. Even before that edit, it was looking promotional. Tagging as {{news release}} until I get around to looking properly. --h2g2bob (talk) 23:36, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Yep, still way too promotional, not very wikified, (inline links, 'publications' are mainly individual guest columns for newspapers), poor writing and grammar. Some of the details give a distinct flavour of self-editing. I will make a start. Centrepull (talk) 05:14, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

The promotional tone is back. The external links added in this edit are all promotional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.2.226.204 (talk) 21:02, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Battle for Hammersmith: Shaun Bailey, Andy Slaughter and the great Wikipedia mystery

It appears that a Shaun Bailey shill has been editing this page for propaganda purposes. --Tagishsimon (talk) 09:41, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Removal of information sourced from the guardian website

Recent edits have removed information sourced from Dave Hill's London Blog on guardian.co.uk. Dave Hill is a professional journalist and as I understand it the blog is under Guardian editorial control, and so I believe is a reliable source as per Wikipedia definition: Identifying_reliable_sources. As such I believe that this information should be reinstated. Dastra (talk) 12:09, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

References

Information pre 2006

My Generation was setup on 24th February 2006, and was selected as Conservative PPC for Hammersmith on 29th March 2007 - is there any information what Shaun did between leaving university and setting up the charity ?

Crystal

The ban on predictions of the future is being broken in a big way here. Bailey is possible future Mayor of London, we are told.

External links modified

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Racism and Islamophobia

Recent edits have removed information about racist tweets and Islamophobic tweets shared by Shaun Bailey. There are numerous references for this, e.g. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/shaun-bailey-islamophobia-sadiq-khan-london-mayor-tory-party-conservatives-a8558521.html and http://uk.businessinsider.com/shaun-bailey-conservative-candidate-2020-london-mayor-race-sadiq-khan-2018-9

This edit was performed by a Conservative Party supporter. Removing the sentence about racist tweets appears to go against the BLP guidance about balance. In particular, something isn't unbalanced simply because it's unfavourable to the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.2.226.204 (talk) 20:57, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Islamophobic and hinduphobic comments

There is a section for this on the page, so I don't see why these comments are required in the lead paragraph. I call for them to be removed - if any objections, please comment your reasoning below before the discussion is closed and this is deemed consensual position. Susiloto (talk) 10:22, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

The lede is supposed to summarise the article, the fact that there is a whole section on them supports the case for them being in the lede. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 12:54, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

It's absolutely appropriate to include material about this in the lead. So much of the coverage of Bailey covers these comments, and especially coverage of Bailey in which he's the main subject. Ralbegen (talk) 15:03, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

I now move on to ask whether accusations of islamophobia and hindusphobia are even justified at all, rather than a callous diatribe on this man. His prior comments on Islam and Hinduism are certainly controversial, but what I object over is the use of the words 'islamophobia' and 'hindusphobia' - they all really use one fundamental source (additional sources seem to succeed this one in date so probably based on this source still - https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/anti-hindu-muslim-views-return-to-haunt-london-mayor-candidate-shaun-bailey/story-woCY6o4owDF4Yp9lnOxNBM.html - is this really enough for such lengthy accusations? This article refers to his criticism of privileging of Diwali and Eid over Christmas. But that is not expressing 'hatred of Hindus or Muslims' as these terms would constitute. If anuything, it is a mere criticism of the educational establishment and processes.

Furthermore, another source refers to his shariong of an islamophobic tweet. `But was this really islamophobia? It seems to me more just an accident which certainly does not warrant such a scathing attack on him.

These sections are also very biased and one-sided against the subject of the article, the man, Sean Bailey. Susiloto (talk) 12:13, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

The sentence: "He claimed that South Asians "bring their culture, their country and any problems they might have, with them" and that this was not a problem within the black community "because we’ve shared a religion and in many cases a language" is misleading and implies that south asians bringing "their culture, their country and any problems they might have, with them" is not a problem wth the black community when what he's really saying is that the black community doesn't have that problem. I've tried to edit but it gets reverted. 71.7.208.7 (talk) 01:55, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

The material about accusations of Islamophobia and hinduphobia are a summary of reliable source coverage. They include long quotes of Bailey's own words and responses from Bailey's spokesperson and James Cleverly. The Hindustan Times article uses the phrase "anti-Hindu" rather than "Hinduphobic", so I'd be happy to see the word "Hinduphobia" replaced with "anti-Hindu views" and "Hinduphobic" with "anti-Hindu". I don't think it's really possible to cast into doubt that accusations have been made, and the accusations have received plenty of coverage—not just limited to the sources currently used in the article—so I don't see any case to remove them from the page. Ralbegen (talk) 12:59, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Hindustan Times is, according to its own Wiki page, it was "founded [...] with roots in the Indian independence movement of the period ("Hindustan" being a historical name for India)." so it is not reliable for things pertaining to India/Hinduism/the east - it is obviously going to be biased in favour of these attributes. This is ven if it is generally a reliable source for WIKI on othger topics (for instance, science). Susiloto (talk) 08:17, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't think "Indian newspapers aren't reliable sources on subjects relating to Hinduism" is a convincing argument. Ralbegen (talk) 11:10, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Shaun Bailey (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 04:49, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Father a lorry driver?

It says that he was brought up by his mother and family because his father was a lorry driver. He then met his father and father's second family when he 13. Who wrote this drivel. It should be deleted. Rustygecko (talk) 08:41, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

COI Edit Requests

As Bailey's constituent and a life-long member of the Conservative Party, I would like to resolve a number of inaccuracies and what is most likely intentional disinformation that is connected to his Wikipedia page:

Edit request

Information to be added: As a young Black politician, Bailey has been a frequent victim of racial discrimination. Add a new section titled "Victim of Racial Abuse" on his profile. Move the following paragraph from the 'Other' sub-section into the new 'Victim of Racial Abuse' section: "Kensington Labour MP Emma Dent Coad provoked controversy after a blog she wrote about Bailey in 2010, before her election to the House of Commons, which referred to him as a "token ghetto boy". Dent Coad quoted former neighbours describing Bailey as a "free-loading scumbag" and "the most hated man in North Kensington". She suggested Bailey had been "used" by the Conservatives and that his "public school buddies will drop him like a hot potato" if he failed to get elected. Bailey subsequently called the comments "racist" and "hate-filled". Dent Coad later apologised for "any offence caused" and said that she was just repeating what others had said." Information to be added: Add the following as the second paragraph into the new "Victim of Racial Abuse" section: "After being selected as the Conservative candidate for London Mayor, Bailey was a target of racist abuse on Twitter by iself-declared Labour supporters. A Momentum-supporting Labour member tweeted: “Shaun Bailey is the biggest Uncle Tom to walk the planet’ and a ‘vile disgusting Uncle Tom’. Bailey was also called “a lying coconut’ in another tweet." Bailey revealed the abuse to the Evening Standard, commenting: “We cannot have a contest that is plagued by racial abuse, mud-slinging and identity politics”. Bailey also revealed that he received a racist letter, which read: “N****r – you are not welcome around Twickenham.” It was sent to the Richmond Conservative Association office in south-west London. Responding to these racist statements, Bailey said: “Racist abuse, from the left or right, is not right. We should not have to tolerate these personal attacks that poison the well of public debate.” He has also called on the Conservative Party to have a “proper conversation” about the allegations of Islamophobia. He wrote in the Guardian: “There is simply too much hate floating around online these days and too much of it is appearing (intentionally or not) under our banner. We must root it out, now.” Information to be removed: Bailey's introduction reads “and was subsequently accused of Islamophobia, Hinduphobia and sexism in a row surrounding past comments.” This is highly contentious and should be deleted entirely. The last paragraph of the introduction should be changed to: "Bailey has worked as a researcher for the Centre for Policy Studies, before standing in the Hammersmith constituency as a Conservative at the 2010 general election, and also served as the Prime Minister's special adviser on youth and crime from 2010 to 2013. At the 2017 general election, he contested Lewisham West and Penge. In 2018, Bailey was selected as the Conservative candidate in the 2021 London mayoral election (which were, at the time, scheduled for 2020, but later postponed until 2021)." Explanation of the requested deletion above: The article this links to doesn't actually quote anyone accusing Bailey of any of these things. It quotes a political opponent - as merely saying his past comments were "appalling". The legitimacy of the source can also be questioned, either way, the sentence should be deleted as it doesn't convey what the source says. Information to be amended: In the sub-section "Parliamentary candidate" it reads that "The Guardian revealed pejorative edits were made to the Wikipedia pages of Bailey's opponent Andy Slaughter during the campaign.. This should be replaced with: "The Guardian revealed alleged pejorative edits were made to the Wikipedia pages of Bailey's opponent Andy Slaughter during the campaign." Explanation of the requested changes above: The source doesn't describe "pejorative" edits according to the meaning of the word. It merely describes edits. There was no proof offered in the source, only an accusation, so ‘alleged’ would be more appropriate. Information to be removed: In the sub-section "London Assembly" it reads that "In October 2015, Bailey was selected as the third Conservative candidate on the London Assembly top-up list, after Kemi Badenoch and Andrew Boff. Following the loss of the Merton and Wandsworth constituency seat, the Conservative Party was allocated three top-up seats, and he was elected. If the Conservative candidate had held the constituency seat, the party would have only been allocated two top-up seats, and Bailey would not have been elected. He is currently deputy leader of the Conservative Greater London Authority Group.". This should be replaced with: "In October 2015, Bailey was selected as the third Conservative candidate on the London Assembly top-up list, after Kemi Badenoch and Andrew Boff. Following the loss of the Merton and Wandsworth constituency seat, the Conservative Party was allocated three top-up seats, and he was elected. He is currently deputy leader of the Conservative Greater London Authority Group." Explanation of the requested changes above: The sentence "If the Conservative candidate had held the constituency seat, the party would have only been allocated two top-up seats, and Bailey would not have been elected." is pure conjecture and is not supported by any evidence. Information to be added: Add the following paragraph at the end of the section "2021 London Mayoral election": "Bailey’s policy priorities include a focus on tackling crime, where he says he will use his experience as a youth worker to tackle gangs and violent crime. Bailey has said he wants to see a city ‘where criminals are under pressure, not communities.’ Crime is set to be a major issue at the election. Bailey is also campaigning on housing, transport and protecting the environment. He has also been critical of financial waste at City Hall, where staffing costs at the Mayor’s Office have risen by 82% under Khan. Bailey has pledged to cut waste and use the money to hire more police officers. Bailey has also campaigned against Mayor Khan’s decision to increase the congestion charge to £15 and extend its hours. He is also campaigning for key workers to be excluded. Under current proposals key workers like police officers, teachers, fire fighters and transport workers will have to pay the charge. " Explanation of the requested amendment above: The page contains little to no information about Bailey's platform. This new paragraph summarizes it perfectly. Information to be added: The first sentence of the "Political Views" section reads "Bailey has expressed concerns about liberalism, saying "the more liberal we have been, the more our communities have suffered".. This should be changed to: "Bailey has expressed concerns about liberalism, saying "the more liberal we have been, the more our communities have suffered. This liberalism is destroying our young people. I hate to think how, with their levels of violence, they will be as parents.". Explanation of the requested changes above: Only half the quote being provided makes it out of context. A full quote should be provided to make sure the point is carried across. Information to be removed: The second sentence of the "Political Views" section reads "Bailey has accused BBC's output as being biased and went on to suggest the BBC "sees itself as propagandist for liberal values", and that the licence fee should be split with other broadcasters.." This should be removed entirely. Explanation of the requested deletion above: No online source to the quote provided, only a book reference. No ISBN provided as per Wikipedia guidelines. Impossible to verify authenticity. Information to be changed: The second paragraph of the "Political Views" section reads "In 2005, Bailey suggested that working class people "look to rules", otherwise they may turn to crime." This should be changed to: "In a 2005 policy pamphlet, Bailey, who was a youth worker at the time, argued from his personal experience that poor, working class kids risked being drawn into a life of crime without rules or structure in their lives. He was subsequently criticized by Labour Party opponents for these comments. A spokesman for his campaign responded: "They are the blunt words of a man who grew up in tough circumstances trying to make sense of his world, and trying to get the people in his community to accept their responsibility to do better. They are the words of a man who hasn’t figured it all out, but a man who wants to contribute to society by offering his experiences, however raw they might seem now."". Explanation of the requested changes above: This references an attack piece, not the original source of the comments. They are taken out of context and don't tell readers what the quote originally was. Doesn't include Bailey’s rebuttal. Information to be changed: The last paragraph of the "Political Views" section reads "Bailey has said that children are using abortion services as contraception and has favoured reducing the time limit from 24 weeks to 22 weeks." This should be changed to: "Bailey has been criticized by Labour Party opponents for an interview he gave in 2008 where he observed that children are 'using abortion as contraception' and the time limit should be reduced from 24 weeks to 22 weeks. However, Bailey has also declared that he is pro-choice, saying in the same interview: "I'm pro-choice, though and wouldn't choose to tell a woman what she couldn't do with her body."". Explanation of the requested changes above: Quoted out of context, misses Bailey's rebuttal. Information to be changed: The third paragraph of the "2021 London Mayoral election" section reads "Following his selection, Bailey was criticised for things he had written, said and shared on social media. He shared a tweet with an image with a caption describing Sadiq Khan, the incumbent mayor of London, as the "mad mullah of Londonistan". Bailey's spokesperson said he wouldn't have shared it if he had seen the caption.. This should be changed to: "Bailey has drawn criticism by his political opponents for retweeting a post which referred to London Mayor Sadiq Khan as the "mad mullah of Londonistan". The tweet, which has since been deleted, was shared by Bailey in 2017. When questioned about the matter by The Independent, Bailey’s spokesperson insisted that there is "no way" he would have seen the tweet’s potentially Islamophobic caption, as he would have needed to click on it to see the full text." Explanation of the requested changes above: Doesn't mention that the criticism only came from political opponents, as no sources actually demonstrate outrage other than from the Labor Party. Information to be changed: The fourth paragraph of the "2021 London Mayoral election" section reads "In October 2018, Bailey was accused of Islamophobia and Hinduphobia over the contents of a pamphlet entitled No Man’s Land, written for the Centre for Policy Studies in 2005. In it, Bailey said that celebrating Muslim and Hindu festivals "[robs] Britain of its community" and risked turning the country into a "crime riddled cesspool" as a result. He claimed that South Asians "bring their culture, their country and any problems they might have, with them" but that this was not a problem within the black community "because we’ve shared a religion and in many cases a language". In the pamphlet, Bailey had confused the Hindu religion and the Hindi language: "You don’t know what to do. You bring your children to school and they learn far more about Diwali than Christmas. I speak to the people who are from Brent and they’ve been having Muslim and Hindi (sic) days off." James Cleverly, then the deputy chair of the Conservative Party, said that Bailey had been misunderstood and would not be sanctioned. The comments were condemned by the Hindu Council of the United Kingdom who expressed "disappointment at the misrepresentation of our faith" by Bailey.". This should be changed to: "In October 2018, Bailey was accused by his political opponents of Islamophobia and Hinduphobia over the contents of a pamphlet entitled No Man’s Land, written for the Centre for Policy Studies in 2005. In it, Bailey argued that celebrating Muslim and Hindu festivals "[robs] Britain of its community" and risked turning the country into a "crime riddled cesspool" as a result. He claimed that South Asians "bring their culture, their country and any problems they might have, with them" but that this was not a problem within the black community "because we’ve shared a religion and in many cases a language" . In the pamphlet, Bailey had confused the Hindu religion and the Hindi language: "You don’t know what to do. You bring your children to school and they learn far more about Diwali than Christmas. I speak to the people who are from Brent and they’ve been having Muslim and Hindi (sic) days off."" Explanation of the requested changes above: The Hindustan Times source does not accuse Bailey of 'Hinduphobia'. The current formulation doesn't mention that criticism only came from Labour political opponents. Information to be changed: The last sentence of the fourth paragraph of the "The comments were condemned by the Hindu Council of the United Kingdom who expressed "disappointment at the misrepresentation of our faith" by Bailey.". This should be changed to: "The comments were criticized by the Hindu Council of the United Kingdom who expressed "disappointment at the misrepresentation of our faith" by Bailey." Explanation of the requested changes above: The source does not use the word condemn, which is a rather harsh interpretation of the source. 'Criticize' is more appropriate. Toryspoon57 (talk) 21:42, 13 June 2020 (UTC) References

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Toryspoon57 (talk • contribs) 17:42, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Toryspoon57: You may want to add a Template:UserboxCOI to your user page. Are you being paid by Bailey? Or just a supporter?

I'll leave the edit request for more experience editors.  Darth Flappy ^«Talk» 02:35, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm a supporter. Added tag to user page.

Partially done. I've removed the passage about how if the Conservative Party had held a constituency seat he wouldn't have been elected. It's straightforwardly true, but due weight isn't established by any reliable source coverage. I've also removed the passage about edits to Slaughter's wikipedia page, because it's not very relevant to Bailey beyond having been done by a supporter. Amongst your other requested changes: a section titled "victim of racial abuse" wouldn't be encylopedic. Material covering racism against Bailey is included in the article in the relevant parts of the body, including the mayoral campaign. The word "Hinduphobia" is used as a synonym for "anti-Hindu" which the sourced article supports. There's sourcing in the body for other accusations.

I agree that the article should include more about Bailey's policy platform, though this needs to be drawn from reliable source coverage of his policy platform. The paragraph you proposed doesn't include any references that refer to Bailey at all. I'll go through RS coverage of the election and update the mayoral campaign section appropriately.

The article is meant to reflect reliable source coverage of Bailey. A news article about something Bailey has done that deserves critical isn't an "attack piece", it's an appropriate source that establishes due weight to cover a subject. The article would not be improved by more and longer quotes from Bailey, because it's an encyclopedia article. The intention is to summarise what reliable sources say about Bailey, not what he says about himself. Ralbegen (talk) 08:45, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Some sources for the page:

Tackling Crime: Bailey’s policy priority is tackling crime. He has promised to increase the size of London’s Metropolitan Police to 40,000 officers – an increase of around 9,000 officers – as well as re-open 38 police stations. Bailey pledges to introduce new ‘stop and scan’ technology that will use thermal imaging in knife crime hotspots.

Reversing Congestion charge increase: He has campaigned to reverse the Congestion Charge to £15, describing it as a ‘mistake’. 43,000 Londoners have signed his petition against the increase, and he has promised to reverse it if elected as Mayor.

Tackling Housing: Bailey has pledged to create a new ‘Housing for London’ organisation, a taxpayer-owned housebuilder controlled by the Mayor. It would establish at least 20 mayoral development corporations that would focus on developing sites already in public ownership to deliver a ‘Big Bang’ on housing.

Opposing Heathrow: Bailey opposes the expansion of Heathrow Airport and has pledged to make every London bus electric by the end of his second term. 77.100.149.95 (talk) 19:24, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

References

Removing sentence on Labour councillor

Hi everyone, I've removed a sentence from the mayoral election section about a Labour councillor defecting to the Conservatives and supporting Bailey's campaign, because I don't think this is relevant on a page about Bailey as a person, it may be useful elsewhere (possibly the actual election article?) but I don't think here. Also, as the councillor doesn't have their own article, I don't think this is notable enough of an event to be included - DUE/UNDUE issues. If people disagree, please revert/discuss here obviously. Thanks. Seagull123 Φ 19:49, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 8 July 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) Adumbrativus (talk) 02:15, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

---

Shaun Bailey (AM) → Shaun Bailey (London politician) – The abbreviation AM in the title is not common and familiar for most people enough to be used as disambiguation. Northern Moonlight | ほっこう 21:41, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:50, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support, per nom. Mattythewhite (talk) 00:25, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lockdown party

It would be interesting to have further input on this. Seeing as it has become a career-defining moment for Bailey, should it have its own section? At the moment, it is in the "other" section for his political career. Yellowmellow45 (talk) 22:54, 14 December 2021 (UTC)