Talk:Shikibu-shō

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Ministry of Civil Services will be turned into a dab page. Jenks24 (talk) 14:48, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

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Ministry of Civil Services → Shikibu-shō – "Ministry/Department of Civil Services/Affairs" is rarer usage compared to "Ministry/Department of Ceremonial(s)/Ceremony(ies)" (something like 14 to 1 on Books.google on initial sampling). But because of lack of precise consistency, I am suggesting original Japanese name as main name. Kiyoweap (talk) 06:12, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

This also affects:

• Jibu-shō which currently redirects to Ministry of Ceremonies. But again, it is actually the Jibu-shō that is translated more frequently as "Department of Civil Administration", "Civil Affairs Ministry", "Ministry of Civil Affairs." So the usages adopted currently by Wiki is a vice-versa on the usual convention for modern scholarship, it looks like.
• Shikibu-kyō (式部卿), the head of the ministry. e.g. Fujiwara no Nakamaro had this post.
• Shikibu no daijō (式部大丞), a senior secretary in the ministry. Lady Murasaki Shikibu probably got her name from this office, which her father and husband occupied at different times. --Kiyoweap (talk) 06:29, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Actual usage

After performing books.google and scholar.google searches, I am not finding any good indication of documented use of "Ministry of Civil Services" as the English name for "Shikibu-shō" except those derived from Wiki. Instances of "Ministry of Civil Services" usually refers to such a ministry in the governments of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc. There are three or so instances where it is referring to the Minbu-shō (民部省) in the Meiji government, all 3 examples having to do with the Survey/Map Division that was created underneath it in 1869. This compounds the confusion since Minbu-shō (民部省) is also one of the 8 ancient ministries, though it has been (whimsically) translated "Ministry of Taxation" in the current Wikipedia. --Kiyoweap (talk) 02:24, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I overlooked one referenced mention of "Ministry of Civil Services" given in the article. It cites Varley's translation of the Jinnō Shōtōki, entitled A Chronicle of the Gods and Sovereigns (1980), p.272 of "Chief administrator of the ministry of civil services". The title is not books.google viewable so I have not verified it, but it is apparently searchable on JHTI if you have an account. I believe the minister in question is the Shikibu-kyō Fujiwara no Umakai, who is again mentioned with the office next to his son Hirotsugu. --Kiyoweap (talk) 06:05, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Survey

• Support - per WP:PRECISION, 8th Century, no need to pick one of several modern-sounding but imprecise translations. Also per Murasaki Shikibu Japan Encyclopedia 2002- Page 667 "and the title Shikibu indicating that she was related to a minister of the Department of Rites, Shikibu-sho)" In ictu oculi (talk) 08:34, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
• Comment does the current title become a disambiguation page? -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 22:49, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

  Response I think so, but I now highly question whether the dab should point to Shikibu-shō at all. See #Actual usage above.--Kiyoweap (talk) 02:24, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.