Talk:Shivers (The Boys Next Door song)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Moisejp (talk · contribs) 19:30, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I'll review this article. Moisejp (talk) 19:30, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

No disambiguation links. One "uncategorized redirect" external link (musicnotes.com) that may or may not be a problem—will investigate further. Moisejp (talk) 19:33, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, no copyvios, spelling and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Well-written. No grammar or other problems. Good flow.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   I checked all of the sources I could and, besides a couple of small points that I corrected, all looks good.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   It covers lots of major aspects of about the song.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   It's neutral, no biases.

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   Stable. No edit wars.

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   The fair use rationale for the single image is good, but the sound clip has a "non-free media file should be replaced with a smaller version" notification on it. According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music samples, "samples should not exceed 30 seconds or 10% of the length of the original song, whichever is shorter". The current sample is 30 seconds, but 10% of 4 minutes 37 seconds would be 27.7 seconds. It may be nit-picky, but someone else has also flagged this over-length. Could you create a new sample that is about 27.5 seconds or less? Fixed.The sample is now about 27 seconds, under 10% of the song's length. The single image in the infobox has an adequate FUR. There are no other images used.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

First read-through: This is generally nicely written and an engaging read. Here are a few things I'm noticing on my first read-through.
Lead:

• The first two sentences say this song is by The Birthday Party but credited to The Boys Next Door. In the main body of the article, I was expecting this idea to be explained and developed, but it isn't. In the third para of Origin and recording, it mentions The Boys Next Door recording "Shivers" without any reference to The Birthday Party. In the Music and lyrics section, "The Boys Next Door version" is mentioned, and then later "members of The Birthday Party" without any explanation about the relationship between the two entities. Similarly, the Release and reception section mentions both band names without any explanation.

It is a little tricky to explain—they're both the same band, but the only released versions of the song are under their earlier name (The Boys Next Door), sort of similar situation to Kill Kill. I added a piece in "Release and reception" that hopefully clarifies it. If you think it needs a more thorough explanation, let me know. --Idiotchalk _(t@lk)

• In the lead, there is the statement "A music video for "Shivers" was directed by Paul Goldman in 1979." but this is not talked about anywhere in the main body. I would suggest just moving the sentence to the end of the first paragraph in the Release and reception section.

Done. --Idiotchalk _(t@lk)

• "It has since been cited as 'possibly Australia's most enduring cult hit':" Rather than repeating this direct quote from the main body, if you wanted you could make it more general in the lead, something like "It has been cited as one of the most important cult hits in Australia". But maybe this is just personal preference—I try to reword stuff between the lead and body and avoid direct quotes in the lead whenever possible. But if you feel your way works better, I guess that's OK too.

I feel the same actually, I guess I just didn't think to reword it the first time around! Done. --Idiotchalk _(t@lk)

• "Originally intended as humorous by Howard, he felt later it had been misinterpreted due to Nick Cave '​s vocal delivery on The Boys Next Door version, which Howard was originally slated to sing on." Is there any way to not use "originally" twice in this sentence? Maybe "which Howard was originally slated to sing on" isn't a necessary detail in the lead anyway. Actually, the body of the article doesn't even say Howard was "slated" to sing the song, only that the engineer "suggested" he could do so—there is no indication that there was ever consensus about this.

Fixed. --Idiotchalk _(t@lk)

• Maybe "introduce" Cave instead of suddenly mentioning him. For example, how "misinterpreted due to Boys Next Door singer Nick Cave's vocal delivery on the song."

Done. --Idiotchalk _(t@lk)

• This is a little confusing: " 'Shivers' remained Howard's most requested song during his lifetime". We can guess from this that he is possibly no longer alive, but there is no explicit mention of this in the article. Going to the Wikipedia article for him, I see that he died in 2009. But later in the "Shivers" article it says "Howard stopped receiving requests for it around 2009". So he stopped receiving requests for it around the year that he died. The fact that it was right before he died seems kind of glossed over. There's no explanation given that he was (I presume) touring right up until he died. I don't know if the info is available, but I'm also curious why people would have suddenly stopped requesting his most famous song at all.

Unfortunately, I can't seem to find anything on exactly why. Do you think it would still be useful to note he was touring up until 2009 and mention that it was the year he died? --Idiotchalk _(t@lk)

Music and lyrics:

• "According to Kelsey Munro of the Sydney Morning Herald, the song 'exhibits Howard's enduring gallows humour in its wry treatment of the overwrought protagonist',[14] and the first lyrics 'I've been contemplating suicide / but it really doesn't suit my style' have been branded as 'famous opening lines' and typical of Howard's 'wry, guarded romanticism'.[13]" I think this needs to be reworked. It sounds like it is all Kelsey Munro's words, but in fact only the first half is. Moisejp (talk) 04:49, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. --Idiotchalk _(t@lk)

Live performances:

• "Cave assuming his guitar duties" seems possibly unnecessarily colloquial. How about just something like "Cave on guitar"?

Sure thing. Fixed. --Idiotchalk _(t@lk)

I haven't looked at any of the references yet. I will look at them once you address the issues above. Cheers, Moisejp (talk) 04:07, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to review the article! I think I've gotten around to most of the issues (just have a question about your suggestion on the performance/requests part) and shortened the audio sample to around 27 seconds. --Idiotchalk _(t@lk) 08:34, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• Hi Idiotchalk. Great, I probably won't have time to look at this for the next few days, but I'll be on it soon. Until then, Moisejp (talk) 02:40, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

It's looking better. I've also been doing a few c/e's; if you disagree with them, let's discuss, or feel free to try out other ideas to make the sentences work better. Assume all of the issues above are resolved unless I bring the points up again below.

Thanks for the CEs, no issues with them at all. --Idiotchalk _(t@lk)

Origin and recording:

• "It was released after the band's dissolution and issued on a free cassette with the fourth issue of Fast Forward in April 1981.[4] It was reissued on CD on the various artists compilation album Inner City Sound: Australian Punk & Post-Punk (2006).[5]" The idea of the first of these sentences is repeated in the Release and reception section. Maybe both ideas would work better only in the Release and reception section—what do you think about that idea?

Sure, sounds good. Moved to Release and reception. --Idiotchalk _(t@lk)

Music and lyrics:

• "According to Kelsey Munro of the Sydney Morning Herald, the song "exhibits Howard's enduring gallows humour in its wry treatment of the overwrought protagonist",[13] and the first lyrics "I've been contemplating suicide / but it really doesn't suit my style" have been branded by the Sydney Morning Herald '​s Jake Wilson as "famous opening lines" and typical of Howard's "wry, guarded romanticism"." It's good you cited Wilson for the second part, but the sentence is awfully long. Would you consider breaking it up into two sentences?

Done. --Idiotchalk _(t@lk)

Release and reception:

• "It was issued as a 7-inch single, backed with "Dive Position" and was repressed as it soon went out of print.[14]" I'm not sure what "repressed" means here. Is just saying that the single soon went out of print enough, or does "repressed" signify additional meaning?

Reworked the sentence. Hopefully it clarifies it better. --Idiotchalk _(t@lk)

• "The band changed their name to the Birthday Party after relocating to London, England in 1980 and as a result, all their recordings of "Shivers" are credited to the Boys Next Door.[15]" The first part of the sentence is fine and the last part is fine, but I am unclear about the "as a result" middle part. How is B a result of A?

The sentence seemed to have a better flow to it, but I can see how that part could be confusing. Fixed. --Idiotchalk _(t@lk)

• "Nick Cave has recalled the major critical and underground success of "Shivers" and cited it as the reason for the Boys Next Door's eminence.[8]" This is the first we have heard in the article of any "eminence". I think to use this sentence, it would be better to first establish that their was widespread recognition that the Boys Next Door were an eminent band.

Added a preceding sentence about the band's eminence, from the same source. --Idiotchalk _(t@lk)

• " "Shivers" has also been seen, along with other songs Howard composed, as "crucial to guiding the band in the darker, wilder direction" that defined the Birthday Party's music but still "at the bottom edge of a soon to be explosive curve", according to Dan Lawrence of Stereogum.[17]" I don't think "has also been seen" works well with "according to". Would you consider reworking the sentence? Moisejp (talk) 04:53, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Sure. Fixed. --Idiotchalk _(t@lk)

• Regarding "Howard stopped receiving requests for it around 2009", which we discussed earlier: Why don't you say something like the following, which I believe solves all of the issues I mentioned above about this passage: "During Howard's concerts from 1983 to 1999, "Shivers" was the song most requested by audience members.[20] However, by the time of his tours in 2009—the year he died—he had stopped receiving requests for it. In an October 2009 interview, Howard commented on his relationship with the song, and its position in his setlists, stating..." Moisejp (talk) 05:05, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Looks good. Reworked the sentence per your suggestion. --Idiotchalk _(t@lk) 20:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Great, I have gone through all of the prose and it all looks good. Next I will spot-check the references. I actually have two very minor questions within the prose that you can check at your leisure:

• In the Live performances section, for "During Howard's concerts from 1983 to 1999", would it be clearer to say "Howard's solo concerts"? But I'm not sure whether that is precise or whether some of them may have been with other bands.
• In the Cover versions section, Ha-Mechashefot is italicized but does it need to be? I understand it is a foreign word, but I would have thought its being a band name negates that requirement. For reference, Los Lobos does not get italicized. Moisejp (talk) 16:51, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• Great work. I have checked the sources, except for a couple of minor things that I corrected, everything was good. I am happy to pass this article. Moisejp (talk) 03:35, 19 November 2014 (UTC)