Talk:Shot (pellet)

Info needed

Need info on the different gauges, the different materials, how the shot is typically pushed out of the gun in modern shotguns, and other types of "shot" like "snake shot" or "00 buck shot".

Size of Shotgun Pellets

The article does nothing to explain why shotgun pellets are numbered inversely to their size; i.e. the bigger they are the smaller the number used to designate them. I, for one, have always wanted to know how this came about. And who came up with it.

Some data on muzzle velocities, range, damage potential to targets (human and otherwise), different types of pellets (i.e. do military shotguns use special shot? Does Law Enforcement?

Finally, other, non-shotgun uses for lead spheres are irrelevant given the name of this article and should be included in the general article on lead or, if there's an article on lead's industrial uses, then it should be there.

PainMan (talk) 22:45, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Season shot

I yanked the link to http://seasonshot.com/ because I'm not convinced it's real--it doesn't show up in the USPTO database, and the product isn't on the market yet; I'm betting it's a hoax. To be effective on game, the sectional density would have to be at least as high as steel, and that seems unlikely to be possible with non-toxic, water soluble materials. It's also going to have to survive being accelerated from zero to Mach 1 in a couple of milliseconds. See internal ballistics, external ballistics and terminal ballistics for more information on why this seems so improbable. scot 16:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Lead shot in the environment

For an excellent list of scientific studies, see here. Dysmorodrepanis 02:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

In another deficiency of this article: although the article only alludes to it, some states have banned the uses of lead shot in hunting, requiring, instead, shot made of steel (and, apparently, some other metals less likely to allegedly pollute; though, as with ethanol in cars, we may be only exchanging one kind of pollution for another, more popular but potential just as dangerous as lead). Some scientists apparently have convinced some state legislatures that hunters were polluting the hunting reserves with lead (which, admittedly, can have seriously unpleasant effects on an ecosystem).

It's not something that's popular with hunters that I've talked to. Steel, while far harder than lead, is rather lighter and, thus, doesn't pack the punch of lead. Steel's tensile strength will probably causes it to penetrate right through a birds body, potentially turning it into a pile of feathers and not a meal. (I'm not hunter myself, but members of my family do; as long as you eat what you shoot, I don't see a problem with it.)

PainMan (talk) 22:51, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Manufacture

The info on how shot was and is manufactured is currently spread across at least three pages; lead shot, shot tower, and Bliemeister method. We should work to somehow consolidated / correctly link this information so that it appears once and can be maintained. - Davandron | Talk 02:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

"California Condor"

That picture of a California Condor sure looks like a Turkey Vulture to me. The talk page on the picture says to put requests for correction in the linking article page, so here it is, even though I feel it would be best suited posted on the picture's page. Fresnel149 (talk) 15:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Removed the California Condor references, and "Poisoning". Lead ingested in soft tissue is not toxic. The references used in this section are irrelevant. Lead oxides are toxic - not the alloys used in shotgun pellets and hunting bullets. This article will need definitive references, before lead "poisoning" of California Condors can be accepted as absolute proof of lead poisoning for any animal. (The study they used to get the original bill passed was proven to have been faked. So, avoid attempting to reference it.)

The California Condor has the largest wingspan of any living bird, something like 12 feet (by contrast, the bald eagle's is 8 feet. My grandmother always said, "They look like a damned buzzard!" (Grandmother didn't know that buzzards are actually species of European and African raptors.)

Ditto on the previous post. More condors have died from drinking anti-freeze than from lead poisoning (to my knowledge: 1 and 0, respectively). I grew up and lived in San Diego (home of the Condor Project at the San Diego Zoo. There was never anything on the news about the birds dying from lead! Just anti-freeze. Guess it proves they ain't smarter than dogs, let alone cats.

PainMan (talk) 22:56, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Renaming this article to "Shot"

I propose the article "Lead shot" be renamed to "Shot", and the article needs to be re-written to discuss "shot" generically as a projectile, with expansion on the different shot materials. While traditionally lead, shot is now made in a variety of materials which should be expanded upon. I don't think each of these materials requires a separate page e.g. "Bismuth shot", "Tungsten shot", etc., but can be comprehensibly handled on one "Shot" page. Of course in order for this to be done, the name of the page needs to be changed. BBODO (talk) 07:01, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Agree - I came here to point out the very same thing. Socrates2008 (Talk) 11:50, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. The suggested name is more precise, and it's appropriate to discuss alternatives to lead shot in the same article. Miniapolis 02:46, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

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Lead shot → Shot (pellet) – Not all shot is made from lead Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 07:11, 14 March 2013 (UTC) Socrates2008 (Talk) 12:29, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support. LCS check (talk) 21:05, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
• Do not support. Lead shot deserves its own article, as the size of lead shot for hunting is different than the equivalent sizes used of steel, bismuth, and tungsten/iron shot for hunting. It's too easy to confuse readers through including non-lead shot in the same article as lead shot. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 21:48, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Shot tower

Don't really see the benefit of shot tower being a separate article when it could be covered under the manufacture section of this one. Socrates2008 (Talk) 11:02, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

As long as manufacturing prills (which are not related to lead shot for firearms) keeps being redirected to shot tower merging the two articles would not make much sense. 208.114.164.165 (talk) 12:02, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Lead shot is not banned worldwide, only when hunting migratory waterfowl

I reverted the uncited statement that lead shot is banned for hunting. It specifically is not, except only when hunting migratory waterfowl, or when hunting on wetlands where migratory waterfowl congregate. Lead shot is used for hunting turkeys, for example, as well as for hunting quail and similar non-migratory birds, and for hunting mammals (small game, such as rabbits, squirrels, as well as for hunting big game, such as on the African plains). There is no published research showing any issue of hunting with lead shot, except specifically when hunting migratory waterfowl. This has all been cited in the article. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 16:49, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

• I agree that the majority of legislation currently targets wildfowl hunting in the US & Canada.
• But lead is also banned for hunting a range of animals (that are not wildfowl) in the range of the Californian Condor. This section about the Condor that you deleted was fully referenced, so I'm interested to hear your your rationale for removing it.
• Lead poisoning affects all invertebrates, including humans, so linking an article about animal lead poisoning is entirely appropriate, even if regulations do not currently target all the scenarios where poisoning can occur. (Page 361).Socrates2008 (Talk) 20:27, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't see where I deleted anything about the Condor; I certainly didn't delete any references here. What is the material that you believe should be included? Incidentally, I do not object to including material about lead shot protections intended to preserve the Condor, assuming it is cited. As for the lead shot bans, they don't apply to all wildfowl hunting, only migratory waterfowl hunting, and when hunting on wetlands where migratory waterfowl congregate seasonally. Yes, I agree, lead poisoning can affect all invertebrates, but hunting with lead shot has thus far only been shown to affect migratory waterfowl that feed on the bottoms of lakes, not birds or animals in general, although there have been studies that show that Condors feeding on animals that have been killed/shot with lead shot have had deleterious effects. I agree that we should include material on this, properly cited, of course, in this article. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 20:55, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I've reverted the content you deleted as it was fully referenced. Socrates2008 (Talk) 08:59, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

As your links show above, I did not delete any referenced data on the Condors, despite your claims otherwise. Not sure why you claim I deleted this information, when I obviously did not. Perhaps you are confusing me with another editor on edits to another article page? Anyway, I don't see where any content on the Condors was previously ever contained in this article. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 14:51, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Go to this link, then compare the left column (my version) with the right column (your version). The second paragraph about the condor is missing from the right column, thereby highlighting that you deleted it in this edit. Socrates2008 (Talk) 08:39, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

I entirely missed this deletion. It clearly needs to be in the article. Thanks for correcting this! Miguel Escopeta (talk) 15:21, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

No problem. Socrates2008 (Talk) 09:11, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Merge of shot tower

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was a unanimous consensus not to merge - chris_j_wood (talk) 17:45, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

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• Oppose Shot towers have an architectural significance and often a local history far in excess of being a trivial footnote in a shooting article. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:56, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per Andy Dingley, and also because neither article is particularly short. Natural split-out of this aspect. It is seems itself notable in ways other than as a component of the larger topic. DMacks (talk) 21:19, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

RainbowOz 22:13, 29 August 2014 (UTC)*Oppose Should have link from "Shot" but deserves its own article. For example, I'm not interested in shooting but am interested in the architecture and also the physics of working with lead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RainbowOz (talk • contribs)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

text difficult to understand

The article contains the following text (in the section 'Non-toxic alternatives to lead shot'):

Within recent years, several companies have created non-toxic shot out of bismuth, tungsten, or other elements or alloys with a density similar to or greater than lead, and with a shot softness that results in ballistic properties that are comparable to lead. These shells provide more consistent patterns than steel shot and provide greater range than steel shot. They are also generally safe to use in older shotguns with barrels and chokes not rated for use with steel shot, such as for bismuth and tungsten-polymer (although not tungsten-iron) shot.

I'm having difficulty understanding this, and especially the last phrase of the last sentence. As best I can tell, it is saying that bismuth and tungsten-polymer shots are examples of steel shot, whilst tungsten-iron is not. That seems counter-intuitive, but I cannot see any other way of reading it. On the other hand I'm no expert; could somebody perhaps rephrase it in simple english that can be more easily understood. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 17:36, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Pellet?

Shouldn't this page be named something else? Like "Shot (projectile)"? What does "pellet" even mean, exactly? A shot may be a pellet, but its basic use is as a projectile. Round shot is a projectile. That is how you would describe it, not as "a sphere"..45Colt 19:39, 15 October 2015 (UTC)